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Thread: Springers just got harder to shoot...

  1. #16
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    Surely that's the same as shooting a springer at anything, anywhere other than at a target range ? by which I mean hunting
    Where the prey is & where you & the rifle are in relation to it means that you may have to take shots from uncomfortable positions over, under, around or through bushes, shrubs, trees etc .

  2. #17
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    You'll enter into dodgy ground here regarding ethics, morals and ability.

    You'll often hear these comments re HFT ... but it is especially relevant re springers ...

    You have the choice when out hunting with a springer ( or any other air rifle ) to take on the shot or not. To take the shot as it presents itself or to try and get in a better position ... or leave the shot entirely.

    You now get into the woolly world of " Only take the shot if you are confident that you will make a clean kill " and " Only take the shot if you can put the pellet inside a 1 inch circle at that range and in that position in those conditions ( wind etc )".

    You'll have to answer yourself if the majority of people hunting with an air rifle, and especially a springer, actually adhere to those guidelines.

    The only certain thing is ... if you are out hunting and quarry presents itself, but to take the shot from your present position means that you think you may miss or wound, then you have the option to not take the shot or move to a better position ( that may be just moving a couple of feet ).

    If you are shooting a competition course there is no option other than to take the shot and to take the shot in the position that the rules and target layout demand. For a springer shooter on a decent HFT course ... that means quite a few shots will put you into lottery territory.

    A lot of people limit their hunting to a reasonable range and that may be 30 yards. So shooting a rabbit in the head at 25 yards will probably get you a kill if you can put the pellet inside 25 to 30mm. In HFT you will get targets at 25 yards with a 15mm kill zone and you may be taking the shot out of your comfort zone position. You'll get a far higher percentage of misses at a 15mm kill in an uncomfortable position at 25 yards with a springer than you would trying to place inside 25-30mm in a position of your choice.

    It's fun ... it's just tough. You have to decide if it's an extra challenge or too many shots are a lottery for it to be sport. If the extra variables in POI's with a springer due to enforced 'Out of range style variations' means that you can miss regularly, even if you've judged the range and wind correctly, and have released the shot well, then that's a lottery and not down to shooter performance.

    Shoot it for several years with both a PCP and a springer. Look hard at the results and spot scores from top springer men. You'll find that a good springer shooter can put in just as good groups at the range, even at max ranges, as the PCP guys. So they can shoot a springer very accurately. You'll see decent PCP guys putting in similar scores ( prob high 50's ) week after week. It will only be in very windy conditions that you will see decent PCP men shooting obviously low scores. You will see decent springer men sometimes scoring very well ( just a few behind the top PCP ) but you will see them regularly putting in a low score ( middish to late 40's ). The scores are far more variable. Their technique and consistency isn't that different from the decent PCP guys. It's just that their numbers don't come up on the lottery some weeks. Just how it is.

    The OP should definitely give HFT a serious go with the springer. He'll just have to accept that some weeks he'll be driving home and scored low despite him thinking that he didn't do a lot wrong. If he's happy with that then he'll have years of fun.
    Last edited by bozzer; 22-09-2017 at 05:25 PM.

  3. #18
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    A most excellent post^

    The most forgiving springer I own is a Park 91 .177.
    I hunt with springers within farmyard ranges, thats 25m or less. Most shots are standing, any support is light not the full weight.

    Of a historical note, once farmyard vermin control required a solid hit with a .22. Often whatever hit hard then it was a competition between the hunter and farm dog who got there first. Iron sights were quite able to deliver a solid centre mass hit. There was no great expectation for things to be dead on impact every time, though that was an aspiration, just didn't always happen.
    Once scopes with their better clearer sight picture arrived people thought they could have more range and hold tighter accuracy. Range had another 15m to 20m added and the .177 was seen as the way forward due to their inherent accuracy at these extended ranges due to their higher velocity in 12ft/lbs rifles. Thats when it was found how tricky lighter weight air rifles and their springs really were at top power shot at longer ranges. Heavier rifles became more popular: HW35E, HW77, Original 45. Expectations changed and rather than a central solid hit for a kill then head shots, very accurately placed, became and remain the shot to make.

    Thankfully PCP's arrived and gave the accuracy and consistency that this higher level of precision demands. Funny, John Darling started out with a .177, went to a .22, back to a .177 and finished using a .22. Most was that he "knew" his rifles and secondly he kept his ranges moderate. Both calibres require precision, he finally arrived at .22 because he had the skill to deliver the trickier calibre.

    My advice is find a shooting position that works with the rifle. Then replicate it in the field.
    (I love shooting my .17HMR as the bullet is out of the barrel so fast that its difficult to do anything wrong to upset things).
    Last edited by Muskett; 23-09-2017 at 11:21 AM.

  4. #19
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    Excellent posts, gentlemen.
    THE BOINGER BASH AT QUIGLEY HOLLOW. MAKING GREAT MEMORIES SINCE 15th JUNE, 2013.
    NEXT EVENT :- May 4/5, 2024.........BOING!!

  5. #20
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    When you realise that changing the hold position causes problems you then start to listen to the hypnotic phrases ...

    Reduced hold sensitivity ... and ... tuning.

    This is now time to save yourself lots of pain and kill yourself, as you now start to try and defy science.

    You'll be whipping internals in and out in a frenzy. You'll also start adding weight all over the place until your rig weighs about 11 stone.

    I only shot in the winters and I got to the point where I would wear exactly the same clothes each shoot. For the prone shots I would have a gloved front hand on the floor and there was an exact point on the rifle that had to rest on that front hand. The butt would be just off the floor and the top of the butt had to be in the exact same place in my shoulder ... which happened to be on a seam on the same coat that I always wore.

    If the target/peg position was such that I had to move significantly ( significantly means a very small amount ) away from that then I would abandon prone and take the shot kneeling, as I could have far more control over the hold points when kneeling. I'd take 40 yard 25mm targets kneeling and 15mm 25 yard targets kneeling if need be. I had a better percentage on those in a comfortable kneeling stance rather than an uncomfortable prone one.

    I absolutely loved shooting HFT with my springer like that for many years. Eventually, a failing right eye, a dodgy knee, JSB's inability to produce consistent pellets, the soul destroying temperature induced POI jump, and the PCP/scope kit race that squeezed courses even that little bit tighter ( to a point where I felt that any decent wind now made plenty of shots a lottery for everyone ), beat the will out of me.

    Great times though. Enjoy.
    Last edited by bozzer; 23-09-2017 at 08:53 AM.

  6. #21
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    I gave up competition shooting because of crushed vertebrae (carrying too heavy bergens and mogul bump skiing) but when I did it was all about holding set positions to allow the rifle to shoot straight and consistently. Give the rifle the same shooting platform every time.
    I've said it before when I was shooting County Level .22 rimfire 25m a coffee before would cost me a point. All in the heart rate and time to completely relax. It takes five full minutes to completely relax behind a rifle.

    One thing that annoys me with competition shooting is when it gets so competitive that the targetry is reduced beyond the capability of the shooting systems. A new sport starts well and the inevitable arms race happens. Some can buy equipment to find an advantage and so do. Then equipment becomes more important than the marksmanship. To make it more difficult the targetry size is reduced until the equipment, let alone the conditions, gets beyond the the ability. Its then as much a lottery as anything else. 5 top equipped shots all shoot to the same level but who wins is a lottery. For everyone else enjoying the taking part then its absolute chance.

    Better is to have ten to max score and then do a shoot off. The targetry should be at least be achievable. On a reasonable day some shooters should be able to max on a course of fire, or very close.

    If it comes down to "a coffee" then thats athlete shooting. If the targetry is smaller than the ability of the equipment then thats luck shooting. Once targetry gets to a certain small size its not practical shooting and to me loses its fun factor.

    No idea if this is the case on the competition circuits as I don't do it, but its something to watch out for.

  7. #22
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    Muskett

    The above post is excellent.

    I shot HFT from when it started back around the turn of the century. Since then hundreds and hundreds of people have taken part in it all over the world. The main events are usually sold out in no time and many more club shoots take place every weekend. The manufacturers long since realised it was a popular air rifle sport so they got involved by sponsoring shoots and donating prizes for raffles etc. They then produced air rifles aimed at HFT and put a decent price tag on them. So it's been a very healthy addition to the airgun world, especially in the UK where it started.

    Like a lot of other sports it's had to evolve. In the very early days it was set up as an option to Field Target but for people with far more basic, dare I say 'Hunting style kit'. FT had evolved itself and the kit race was well on the way there with people using custom stocks and very high mag scopes to help range the targets. A decent FT rig with rifle and scope would cost several hundreds of pounds and maybe a lot of hunters or plinkers didn't want to commit to that sort of spend in order to be able to do reasonably well at FT.

    So HFT came along and there were certain rules to make it different from FT and to try and make it so that anyone with basic kit could give it a go with what they already had and do quite well. So no adjustments to scopes so that scopes couldn't be used to range ( by high mag ), so that ranging would be by eye, and no sitting ( the main FT stance ). Max range 45 yards ( FT had already crept out to 55 yards ).

    The main position became prone, but not a classic up on the elbows prone using a sling ... but a prone that allowed the front forearm to rest along the ground and the front of the rifle on top of the front hand. The butt of the rifle could be rested on the floor. Pegs are provided so that the front hand can be rested on the solid peg for those that prefer to have the front hand up off the floor or for shots that require the muzzle to be a little higher ( to shoot over fallen logs etc ). So HFT style prone gave a very stable hold on aim and beginners could very quickly reach a level where they could shoot quite accurately, especially with a PCP.

    Courses were/are 30 targets ( one shot per target ) and 24 of those would be prone, 3 would be kneeling ( 2 of which are supported against a tree etc ) and 3 standing ( again 2 of those supported ).

    The early courses were quite tame with kills of just 40mm and 25mm. Scoring was 2 for a knock down and 1 for hitting the large plate ( then most plates were large ). So beginners could easily take part and put in a reasonable looking score.

    The aim seemed to be to get as many people interested and taking part as possible at this point ... and to get them coming back for more. It became popular quite quickly and clubs were starting to emerge. Even some FT shooters were giving HFT a go and some even moved away from FT to dedicate their Sunday mornings to HFT.

    Issues started to arrive. The very stable HFT style prone ( which was basically to give a lot of people a chance to hit targets and keep the sport popular ) meant that the decent shooters, with decent PCPs, on anything other than a windy day, were scoring very very highly. Several shooters would either clear ( max ) the course or only miss one or two targets. Shoot offs were taking almost as long as shooting the courses.

    In my opinion, at this point, it was simply too easy for the top shooters, in an attempt to make it accessible and fun for the lesser shooters. So things started to change. Smaller kills were introduced and some kill sizes could be set out further. Over a few years the modern day course setting rules evolved and there were several kills of 15mm out to 25 yards and more reduced kills out to other distances. The 'normal' kill of 40mm could be reduced to 35mm out to max range for prone shots.

    Kit started to evolve. Almost from the start people had realised that they could use multi aim point rets to help judge range by knowing the size of kills and target plates, distances between standard target kills and base hinges etc. Custom stocks and hamsters were being used to help with the front hand ( now mostly target gloved ) being on the floor but the barrel, scope, needing a bit more height. Front end depth limits were introduced. People were spending more money on higher end rifles and better quality scopes. This continued and now a lot of shooters use top end very expensive target rifles and expensive small objective lens scopes, expensive butt pads etc.

    I will hasten to add that the beauty of HFT is that a decent shooter can still take part in HFT with the type of rifle and scope that was being used right at the beginning and still do very well. The extra money spent on top end rifles and scopes has only really bought the top guys the odd extra target ... but as you will know ... one or two targets over a season can make the difference between being Champ or Runner-Up ... so people will do what they can to get whatever advantage they can. It also has to be said that it's their money ... so they can spend it on whatever they wish as long as it's within the rules. A lot of 'lower end' shooters are also using top end kit and probably without any real improvement ... again ... their choice.

    Course setters continued to evolve with the sport. To try and confuse ranging they started using non standard sized kills and face plates. Positionals are usually out to the max on most decent comp courses. You rarely see a 40mm kill on a prone shot ( now all 35mm ). Kneeling target range has been extended. Pegs and targets placed so that shooters are forced out of comfort zone stances and positions.

    Like other shooting sports the boundaries have been stretched by the elite ( and the elite finding ways to find small improvements ).

    In my opinion ( and that's all any of these internet posts are ) ... the accuracy of kit used ( it's still all down to finding a decent batch of pellets that will give you accuracy and consistency in your rifle ) and the stability of HFT prone has pushed the courses to a point where, on a stillish day, no course can still stop the top guys from clearing or coming very close ( maybe missing one or two ), however, the courses are now at a point where, on a day with some decent wind, the scores rely far too much on wind estimation in relation to shooting skills like holding on aim, breathing, shot release, follow through, ability to shoot in various positions, and once that wind reaches a certain point ( it's always variable ) then the scoreboards start to show that it's become a lottery. The rest of the masses have probably had to take a small drop in their scores, on stillish days, and a battering on windy days, but most seem happy with that, as attendances are still excellent.

    I'll quickly add that it's the making of new friends and the meeting of old ones and the camaraderie that interests most ... and there's that in abundance at HFT shoots. So I think it's that that keeps most coming back and that is a nice thing.

    I'd have tried to keep kills and ranges more relaxed but made the top elite group of shooters take far more shots in traditional positions ... kneeling, standing and maybe even a more traditional style prone. The newbies and 'fun' shooters could be allowed to shoot the more relaxed courses in the way they shoot now with most shots in a relaxed prone stance with the 6 positionals. That way you could still use the same course for the elite and lower end shooters. It would also mean that wind would be less of a priority and more emphasis in the elite group on shooting skills. It would also lessen the lottery on particularly windy days. I'm sure the reply will be that it would be too complicated and too confusing and that the idea is that everyone shoots the same course in the same fashion. There has been no real need to try and change anything as the attendances will prompt the old faithful, go to saying ... If it aint broke, then don't try and fix it. I like another saying ... It may be good, but is it as good as it can be?. Like all things in amateur sport ... you are limited by the time and effort that those who are doing all the work can, and are prepared to, put in.

    Anyway ... relevance to this thread ...

    As the courses have tightened up, driven by the top shooters using top end PCP target rifles etc, it's become a very tough world for springer shooters. They still turn up bless them and give it a go. New ones, like the OP keep coming along and have dreams that they can master the HFT circuit with an old boinger. A quality shooter won a major shoot last year with a springer. I wish all the springer shooters well.
    Last edited by bozzer; 24-09-2017 at 08:02 AM.

  8. #23
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    Very interesting thread and very insightful...

  9. #24
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    Some great reading here, clearly a lot of experience. Thanks for the replies.
    I'm still of the opinion that you make your own luck to a certain extent. Maybe if the stars align and I get near the top end of the scores one day I'll discover this lottery. For now I'll just enjoy getting there if I can.

    I'm not under any illusions of matching the scores of the PCP guys. There's a springer class for a reason
    I should be doing at least 4 of the Daystate Midlands rounds coming up. Hoping for about 45 average. By this time next near I'd like to be more like 50 average. I would be happy with that

  10. #25
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    There are more variables in your position on an HFT course with a springer, but it's the same course for all springer shooters.

    I don't think it's a lottery, otherwise you wouldn't see the same names up the top all of the time. Yes there is some luck involved, there is for PCP shooters too. But what you'll find is - the more you practice, the luckier you'll get.

    They say that practice makes perfect, but what I think is a more accurate thing to say is that "Perfect practice makes perfect". By that what I mean is that if when you practice you just practice shooting targets from a nice flat level position on a zero range, then you're not going to get the results you want.

    On an HFT course there are lots of different styles of shot and position that you will need to prepare and practice for. If you do that, you'll get better scores.

    Simple as that really. It's similar in FT, but there are possibly less variables on the sort of positions you may need to get into.

  11. #26
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    Hi the, Nice reading i would love to try hft, but i am a fairly new newcomer to air rifles, in fact i only started due to the wife having hens with the usual problems of "RATS" which were just laughing at all the poisons bar lead poison. So started learning with co2 but found not suitable so got a walther century but found the learning curve very steep, so next came an rm8 so shooting @ 30 yards down to 10mm groups, Watch out mr rat 26 last winter before they went back to the feilds behind. On top of this i am disabled i am not sure if the courses would be suitable for me to shoot, I would not be able to use the prone position so as you say a large percentage of shots use this position. I as of yet have not found any hft courses in Rotherham or very close. Would the equipment i have be usable for hft.

    All the best Graham.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian.Samson View Post
    On an HFT course there are lots of different styles of shot and position that you will need to prepare and practice for. If you do that, you'll get better scores.
    This is why I keep saying 'lottery'.

    I found this by chance before I realised it was obvious. I would go to the range several times a week and practice HFT with a springer. I was shooting one day on the range from a HFT steady prone position at my zero range of 35 yards at a card target. I was nailing all the pellets inside a very tight cloverleaf on the bull ( little wind that day ). I decided to shoot at an actual knockdown target which I'd put about 6 feet up a tree and about 3 yards to the right of that card. It had a 25mm kill. I left my legs in the same natural prone position and just swung my shoulders around a few degrees and lifted my front hand up the peg a few inches to get the elevation. I'd expect to hit a 25mm kill HFT prone in still wind all day long. Results ... Miss, Hit, Miss, Miss, Hit. How weird? I went back to the card and back to cloverleaf around the bull. How was I missing that 25mm kill at 35 yards? So I put a card by the target on the tree. My groups had opened up and the POI had moved. Just from having my legs/shoulders at a slightly different angle and my hand slightly higher up the peg. Not opened up by much and the POI hadn't moved by much, but it was enough to mean I was now missing some shots at that 25mm kill at 35 yards.

    I put the springer down and took out an old BSA S10 from the car. I did exactly the same thing. At 35 yards HFT prone at the card a couple of feet off the ground and directly in front of me ... cloverleaf tight groups around the bull. At the card 6 feet up the tree and a couple of yards to the right ( legs same position/hand up peg ) ... cloverleaf tight groups around the bull. I shot at the knockdown 25mm kill and hit it every time.

    Small changes and the POI was moving with the springer. Enough to cause one to miss HFT kills at HFT ranges. I tried several other variations and again the POI moved.

    It's fine saying you have to practice to perfect things. It's fine doing that in various wind conditions to try and get an idea of what variations you have to make in various strength winds. Trying to practice and note all the small variations you get in POI when moving your body and hold positions you'll get in all the different positions you'll get into on a HFT course would need the world's biggest crib sheet or a computer for a brain.

    So with the very stable HFT allowed prone position and the use of very accurate PCPs ( pretty dead on shooting ), the courses, and kill sizes/ranges, have been driven to a point where when you start adding in those small variations in POI for a recoiling rifle ( and opened up sizes of groups ), there are targets on the course where it's a matter of luck whether they go down or not. A PCP shooter could aim at the same point 10 times and that target will go down every time or the greatest majority of the time. The springer shooter aims at the same point and may get 50%. The PCP shooter's aim points and POI's will remain pretty consistent for all body/hold positions ... the springer shooter's will be all over the place. It's the very definition of a lottery. Yes you can try and practice and edge your bets by getting an idea what happens in certain repeatable situations on a course ... but the lottery will always be there.

    Add in a certain level of wind and the small kills means the lottery starts to creep in for the PCP shooters ... it's an even bigger lottery now for the springers.

    Let's look at scores and results. It's very difficult to quote springer stats as there are so few springer shooters that complete enough National UKAHFT shoots to qualify ( six shoots out of nine ).

    I mean no disrespect here for any of the shooters ... I'm just quoting figures.

    Historically Kyle Hampton has been a very successful springer HFT shooter. Daniel Measures also did very well in springer.

    If you look back a few years when Kyle and Daniel were shooting springer UKAHFT you will see that these guys, on occasion managed scores just behind the best PCP shooter on that day. My laptop isn't showing the last column for some years so apologies if there are errors here.

    In 2013 James won the PCP Open Championship. His scores over the 9 shoots ranged from 100% ( 60/60 ) to 84.2% ( that 84.2% is a silly low score for James and was a one off ). Richard Woods in second that year scored between 100% and 94.8% and that's a more realistic range for a top PCP shooter ( outside of the lottery high wind shoots ). So Richard had less than a 6% spread in his scores.

    That year Daniel scored between 96.5% and 71.9% and won Recoiling Class. That's about a 25% spread.

    That year Richard scored a brilliant 57/60 at Kibworth in the first shoot of the season on a tough course in high winds. That day Daniel scored a 41/60 and Kyle scored a 44/60 ( someone posting on this thread scored 45/60 ). That year on round 7 at MAD Richard scored a lowish 54/60 ( top PCP score was 57/60 ). Daniel scored 55/60 with a springer. Kyle scored 47/60.

    So these are PCP and springer men shooting exactly the same courses on the same day. This is very typical of what you see when you have a very very good springer shooter taking part in a big series. You see the top PCP shooter scoring within a few points each shoot ( with the odd low one when the wind has been strong and made the PCP comp a bit of a lottery also ). You see the very very good springer guys getting the odd very good score and being within just a few points of the top PCP guy. However, you see a much much greater spread in the springer guy's scores with some very average and low ones in there.

    In 2014 James won the PCP Open again and his scores were 100% to 87.2%. Again a very low first shoot of the season score.

    That same year ( 2014 ) Kyle won recoil with scores from 92.86% to 54.55% ( the 54% was the same first shoot that James had scored low on ... that'll be Quarry in Wales with a bit of wind ). He scored greater than 90% on 4 occasions that year. He also had scores in the low 80's and mid 70's (%).

    So another year of PCP men scoring relatively consistently for the greatest majority of the shoots and a top springer man putting in some very high scores but also putting in very low ones.

    A similar story in 2015 with the top PCP man ( Pete Dutton ) scoring consistently high. Kyle won recoil again with several more high scores in the 90's but a low score down to 80. Daniel had a poor year that year.

    In 2016 and so far in 2017 ( not completed yet ) the PCP story is much the same. Richard won 2016 PCP Open with scores between 100% and 94.7%. This year Justin Grice is in the lead with scores from 100% to 94.7%.

    Kyle and Daniel haven't shot the Nationals in springer in 2016 or 2017. No disrespect whatsoever to other springer shooters, but no springer shooter scored a 90% plus score in 2016 and no one has so far in 2017 ( not Gathering ). Perry Broad won it in 2016 with scores between 86.2% to 71.2%. Chilly is in the lead this year with a pretty consistent 85.9% to 82.1%. Perry is in second with 81.3% to 59.6%. As stated above ... no really high score from either of these shooters so far. So with the PCP scores remaining similar maybe these two latest contenders for top springer aren't yet up to putting in the high scores that previous recoil champs have managed ( or their numbers just haven't come up yet ).

    All the years I shot this and all the stats, and the fact that I know these top springer guys can shoot springers very accurately, tells me that there is an element of luck in the springer shooting, compared to the PCP shooting, that is beyond anything that the shooter can do.

    It's like Muskett said in an earlier post ...

    "... when it gets so competitive that the targetry is reduced beyond the capability of the shooting systems. A new sport starts well and the inevitable arms race happens. Some can buy equipment to find an advantage and so do. Then equipment becomes more important than the marksmanship ( I don't agree with that in HFT as the top PCP blokes can shoot and would still win if you limited the quality of the kit ). To make it more difficult the targetry size is reduced until the equipment, let alone the conditions, gets beyond the ability ( of some of the shooting systems used ). Its then as much a lottery as anything else."

    I've added in the bold bits.

    So I'm convinced that the rock steady HFT prone stance and the accuracy of top PCP's ( used in a variation of positions ) has pushed modern HFT courses to a point where, as a shooter who loves shooting comps with a springer ...

    ... you use a PCP yourself and live with a bit of a lottery on windy days, but at least then it's pretty much up to you if you knock them down depending on your ranging, wind estimation and shooting abilities,

    ... you continue to use your springer but accept that on quite a number of targets on the course it's a lottery whether they go down or not, despite you ranging well, judging the wind well and getting the shot off well.

    ... you try springer FT.

    It is different in FT. You still have to vary your positions slightly but the sitting position in FT, compared to the prone HFT position, means that you aren't forced into as much variation due to trees, roots, rocks etc, and I felt that using the sitting position you can learn to allow the rifle to recoil more naturally, because of the flexibility of the body/torso from the waist up and accommodate some variation, as opposed to HFT prone where most of the body is set on the floor. Brian certainly knows more about FT springer shooting than I do.
    Last edited by bozzer; 26-09-2017 at 03:42 PM.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by bozzer View Post
    This is why I keep saying 'lottery'.

    I found this by chance before I realised it was obvious. I would go to the range several times a week and practice HFT with a springer. I was shooting one day on the range from a HFT steady prone position at my zero range of 35 yards at a card target. I was nailing all the pellets inside a very tight cloverleaf on the bull ( little wind that day ). I decided to shoot at an actual knockdown target which I'd put about 6 feet up a tree and about 3 yards to the right of that card. It had a 25mm kill. I left my legs in the same natural prone position and just swung my shoulders around a few degrees and lifted my front hand up the peg a few inches to get the elevation. I'd expect to hit a 25mm kill HFT prone in still wind all day long. Results ... Miss, Hit, Miss, Miss, Hit. How weird? I went back to the card and back to cloverleaf around the bull. How was I missing that 25mm kill at 35 yards? So I put a card by the target on the tree. My groups had opened up and the POI had moved. Just from having my legs/shoulders at a slightly different angle and my hand slightly higher up the peg. Not opened up by much and the POI hadn't moved by much, but it was enough to mean I was now missing some shots at that 25mm kill at 35 yards.
    Don't forget to also allow for the butt moving in/on your shoulder, if for one shot it's in a soft fleshy area then when you change angle it rests on hard bone it will effect the way a springer recoils, so an area of soft padding sewn on/in to your jacket might help a bit.

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