UK Shooting News - aka Parliamentary Air Rifle Debate

[bullbarrel]

Shame the other thread(s) got shut.

Could they not have been merged?

It could be, but then the flow doesn't work. It looks like people are respond to posts on each other's threads and its just messy and confusing. If it had been spotted earlier then it could have been.

If you want to respond to something on it then just quote it on here and continue. Or précis the last few posts and continue.

[angrybear]

Phil. how many people knew about the safe handling legislation in 2011 or has even looked to see if there was any legislation on safe handling ? or how many would admit to looking ?

there is a fair number of people on here that have a huge collections of airguns and children in the house i would assume . have they followed the safe handling rules ?

there was a post on here recently
http://www.airgunbbs.com/showthread....hlight=pulling

could you do a poll please as i'm not sure on how to do it .

Well there have been multiple threads over the years that have referred to the Home Office leaflet "Air Weapons: A brief guide to safety" Jan 2011, which is the guide leaflet.

I'm 99% certain it was included as a free give away in the magazines at the time, a copy was certainly included with every new air gun I've bought since & I seem to remember seeing stacks of them in RFD's
BASC refer to it & have links to it as does BFTO & I'm sure any other airgun organisation.

So frankly I'm utterly gob-smacked that anyone can claim they were unaware of it.

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...afety-jan-2011

[bighit]

Well there have been multiple threads over the years that have referred to the Home Office leaflet "Air Weapons: A brief guide to safety" Jan 2011, which is the guide leaflet.

I'm 99% certain it was included as a free give away in the magazines at the time, a copy was certainly included with every new air gun I've bought since & I seem to remember seeing stacks of them in RFD's
BASC refer to it & have links to it as does BFTO & I'm sure any other airgun organisation.

So frankly I'm utterly gob-smacked that anyone can claim they were unaware of it.

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...afety-jan-2011

not every one buys the magazines or buys their airguns from an RFD though. unless the joe public seller has some and gives them out .

i would expect some one with kids in their house to at least have some sense to stop kids getting them .

i have no kids in my house but my evo its still locked up in the cabinet along with my .22lr and the shotgun. the hw99s is in bits in the wardrobe

[lensman57]

Do we even know what this chap Hurd might be proposing? I guess we are all so worried that England will follow Scotland and go the licence route but the Police as good as they are will not be able to cope so their input will become crucial. Dare I say that subcontracting the licensing to private firms will be as unsuccessful as the other examples set by this government? Difficult to mount a campain if we don't know what we are fighting against.

A.G

[bighit]

Do we even know what this chap Hurd might be proposing? I guess we are all so worried that England will follow Scotland and go the licence route but the Police as good as they are will not be able to cope so their input will become crucial. Dare I say that subcontracting the licensing to private firms will be as unsuccessful as the other examples set by this government? Difficult to mount a campain if we don't know what we are fighting against.

A.G

its not the firearms offices that run the scottish license scheme . its a separate department . i asked my FEO when my renewal was in and when he did the home visit he said it was a separate dept and he would not need to see my airgun at all.when i took the rifles and shotgun from the cabinet he then took a note of the shotgun and the .22lr serial numbers and i asked if he wanted the serial number off the evo and he said it was not required but he noted it down anyway.

[gingernut]

Do we even know what this chap Hurd might be proposing? I guess we are all so worried that England will follow Scotland and go the licence route but the Police as good as they are will not be able to cope so their input will become crucial. Dare I say that subcontracting the licensing to private firms will be as unsuccessful as the other examples set by this government? Difficult to mount a campain if we don't know what we are fighting against.

A.G

We don't.
So let's not get too heated about it yet.

He may well respond by saying that further legislation would have no affect on the type of incidents highlighted by MPs and a Coroner.

[Ooopz]

There have been some really interesting and well thought out comments in this thread and those on other forums all of which would add quality to legislation but every one has totally missed the point. And that point is, as nation those that engage in “country sports and pursuits” are very poorly represented.

Up until a few years back I used to think that in the States the power and influence of the NRA and its aggressive political stance was insane then I read a really enlightening article written by a UK journalist that explained the ethos behind them. In short they believe that if you concede an inch the politicians will take a yard for no better reason than political posturing and in a process of slow erosion will spoil the joy of responsible gun ownership.

Reactionary BS and political posturing is exactly the sort of thing they stand against. I wish we had an organisation with the minerals and influence to truly protect our interests but the sad fact is we don’t. None of the country sports have it.

I still find it incredible that as a group we rolled over for the 12 ft lbs power limit and the associated draconian punishments. Why? Because it didn't solve "criminal use" it was political posturing, it was a bureaucrats arbitary number, and importantly it represented the thin end of the wedge for a loss of historical rights for an enormous group of responsible airgun users. And because we rolled over we're about to see the legacy of it in licensing. Make no mistake, without intervention licensing is coming. And without effective opposition I doubt it will stop there.

When are politicians and by association the police going to stop wasting resources on trivia and refocus on providing better support where its needed? Explain to me where the value is in police resources being spent on enforcing the 12 ft lbs rule when keepers and land owners can't get an effective response to poachers and their associated violence, and where known offenders remain at large or punishments are laughable.

The simple fact is politicians react because they need to show they're doing something but their actions frequently do nothing to stop the root cause of the problem which is criminal activity and IMHO it always, always unfairly marginalises decent law abiding folk.

A similar well intentioned and totally misguided knee jerk reaction wiped out pistol shooting as a sport in the UK and has done nothing to stop the gun crime that can be found today in all of our major cities. I read a quote by a chap who spent 20 years in the Forensic Science Service which said there was no evidence that the ban on handguns after Dunblane had done anything to cut the criminal use of firearms and that in his experience "It was very rare that there was ever leakage from the licensed gun owners to the criminal fraternity. Most guns used by criminals are either illegally imported or converted weapons. And that remains the case today” That comes as absolutely no surprise to me and I think I'm not alone.

Its a different subject but the same principle in play when we look at the legal farce surrounding the right to defend ourselves and our loved ones in our own homes when we're broken into. Its a total farce and yet we roll over for it.

As a nation we’re brought up be decent, tolerant and law abiding and it works against us.
It works against because we rely on politicians making considered and rational decisions but the simple truth is they don’t. Simply put they work for votes not common sense and they will not support common sense and reason if it opposes the view of the uninformed majority.

We airguners are a soft target because of those principles, we play nice, we don't make a fuss because we're a decent law abiding group and the result is we're steam rolled. A line needs to be drawn in the sand. All country sports bodies should be supporting one another and aggressively opposing any and all arbitrary changes to law.

As airgunners our sports bodies should be aggressively opposing any and all arbitrary changes to ownership and use of guns. Any such changes should only be implemented after exhaustive consultation with representative sports bodies and should not be implemented without the ratification of the same. In that way we might get laws influenced by people that know what they're talking about, instead of people that wouldn't be able to open a tin of pellets the right way up.

For example what genius thought that penalising and eroding the historical rights of a huge number of law abiding and responsible airgun users with a 12fpe rule was going to be effective in curbing criminal use? An enthusiast would have immediately seen through it and I have no doubt they would have agreed that treating criminal use of an airgun in the same way as criminal use of a firearm would have been far more effective in putting the punishment where it belonged.

The various groups that we and other county sports have could do a lot worse than consulting with the NRA in States and taking advice on how to restructure in order to effectively influence the politics relating to our sport. If they don't do some thing radical and effective right now I believe in the long term gun ownership will be a rarity.

Do we need rules, regulations and guide lines? Of course we do BUT they need to be authored by people that have solid knowledge and understanding of the subject and who possess a true love and passion for the activity in question as opposed to the chinless blow hards that plague every aspect of modern politics and therefore law and who's policies are decided by tabloid headlines.

We all feel for those that suffer in tragedies and we pray that our family and friends will be safe from such things. However we should be able rely on our professional policy makers to have the maturity & wisdom to ensure that any resulting action is dispassionate, balanced and effective and that they arrive at this by consulting with people that truly know the score. Unfortunately this doesn't seem to happen. The papers print headlines, the uninformed public get swayed and policy makers move to be seen to be doing some thing rather create an effective & meaningful solution.

Its been suggested the various bodies have in the past come together and will again to address these sorts of occurrences. It sounds good but where’s the tangible proof of influence and success? They were impotent in the Scottish licensing debacle and what did they achieve in the 12 fpe decision?

IMHO for airgunning the the thin end of the wedge was the implementation of the 12fpe limit, it was pivotal to the future of airgunning and, as far as I can see, it came in with out any effective opposition. IMHO that single event was the death knell for this activity. Its not about whether I do or do not think that there should be a limit, its because it signalled the point where it was proven that as a group we have no effective representation and that Ministers, policy makers and police can get away with anything they want.

Country sports needs to see BASC, Countryside Alliance et al having the political will and weight to publicly hold policy makers to account when they fail to consult, or ignore recommendations or implement ineffective legislation. They need to be vocal when policy makers and implementers are not being reasonable, or are acting against our interests or failing to follow Home Office guidelines. An example of such appears to be the interpretation of Home Office guidelines for FAC applications, from what I read its different from county to county. Why is that? What's BASC or whoever doing about it?

Ok we're not talking about FAC but the principle is the same. Who's going to get up close and personal & if necessary unpleasant and outspoken with the Ministers, Chief Constables or whoever if they decide to adopt an ineffective course of action that will penalise the law abiding? Whose going to go on Youtube and say “the right honourable MP for XY & Z has said he won’t support shooting sports, when the time comes we advise you don’t vote for him” or “he said he’d vote against a change in licensing laws but then voted for it, he can’t be trusted we recommend you don’t vote for him”.

All these groups need be going into print on a regular basis about what Ministers and policy makers have said, what they’ve made good on and what they fail to deliver. Names need to be published and reelection recommendations need to be made. When correctly applied the collective political weight of organisations each with tens of thousands of members would be significant.

And there’s one of the keys, all the groups need to come together because the divide and conquer tactic of the antis and politicians has worked. Attacked one at a time various sports have been emasculated and we need to learn from it. We don’t need to agree that for example fox hunting is ok, we need to agree to differ and adopt mutual support. FAC, Airgunners, shot gunners, foxers, wildfowlers, horsemen, stalkers, the dog boys, keepers et al need to support each other. We’re the countryside not the antis or the cat fancier’s association or the vets that won't treat gun dogs or fill in the FAC return.

Why wait until there’s a crisis to come together? Its vitally important that our representative bodies be proactive and constructive. Why not have all the representative bodies review all aspects of the gun law as it applies today to identify areas that are ineffective, inappropriate or inadequate and in doing so arrive at a working document. This would then be circulated to the various memberships for approval. They’d then present it to the policy makers as alternative to current legislation & continue to lobby politicians until it was adopted. Imagine a realistic sensible governance written by gun enthusiasts of all types. What better way to get sensible legislation and demonstrate responsible knowledgeable self administration?

Its not good enough to say “lets wait and see what happens” Events like this need preplanned immediate and measured responses and this approach needs to be applied to all country pursuits. If it hasn’t already happened there should be a comprehensive campaign ready and waiting should it be necessary to defend our rights within the sport

I may be wrong but it appears to me that the groups we have right now are toothless and ineffective in maintaining the rights of those in pursuit of country sports. If they don’t radically alter their approach airgun use and ownership as we know it may well cease to exist.

I’m sure that there will be many that disagree with me so as a yard stick why don’t we sit back and see what the groups do individually or collectively about the recent criminally inaccurate articles on squirrel shooting and the personal attack on Si Pittaway.

[angrybear]

Well Mr ooopz for a start the 12fpe limit was asked for by the UK airgun industry in the 1960's iirc, to stop the import of more powerful foreign airguns it had absolutely nothing to do with "criminal use" as you claim.

Country sports are under represented because in real terms only a minority of people do them, and of those that do some of us would gladly see certain others banned outright, I personally will never support an organisation that supports hunting with dogs.

This whole thread is largely mass hysterics to something that has not been said, indeed the minister involved stated himself at the time that we already have extremely tight rules, the problem is that idiots don't abide by them.

[gingernut]

Or lets all take up a dangerous mode of transport /sport that is subject to little legislation but pandered to by successive UK Governments and Local Authorities.

Never mind that participants have killed two dozen or more innocent pedestrians in the last few years.

No prizes for guessing what it is.

[Arthur John Smithsplease]

The number of licensed firearms in the USA averages out to 1.75 for every single person.

And the USA is probably the biggest manufacturer and exporter of guns in the world.

That's why the NRA has teeth.

It is also aware of just how the British people were deprived of their fundamental right to own firearms by one stealthy move after another from the end of the first world war right up to the present day

Before the great war you could buy a gun without a license from a hardware shop.

And.yet murder by firearms was extremely rare.

[lensman57]

Well Mr ooopz for a start the 12fpe limit was asked for by the UK airgun industry in the 1960's iirc, to stop the import of more powerful foreign airguns it had absolutely nothing to do with "criminal use" as you claim.

The 12 ft.lbs limit was indeed requested by the British Air Gun industry from the ministers to protect the home grown industry against the German and US made more powerful/advanced products but I believe that the excuse that was used was the case of a nutter who took pot shots at some London buses with a foreign made air gun because he had some sort of employment dispute going. The significance of using an isolated case spearheaded by a campaigning ' newspaper ' to push through draconian legislation should not be overlooked as it has a lot of similarities with what is going on at the moment.

A.G

[Steyr]

Yes I can. The process is already underway. Full details will emerge when the response is finalised.

There are 2 things that make our position difficult. There are too many organisations who may broadly follow a similar path but argaulbly fall down on the specifics and perhaps focus too much on their specific discipline and not the bigger picture.
Organisations like BASC focus on the political and legal agendas but too many others dont and there is no single voice shouting loudly.

The other....is the general apathy of the shooting community as a whole. Too many think others will stand up and speak for them. The result is the voices dont carry the weight needed and the people we vote into power do not represent the desires of the shooting community.

I sadly do not see any signs that the organisations will ..... when needed.... pool resources and speak with one voice. Nor do I see that the mass of individual shooters whether it will air or powder....shotgun or rifleman.......target or sporting will ever stand up as one and speak there minds.

That doesnt mean we shouldnt speak or carry on saying...we just do not seem bright enough to put the differences to one side or acknowledge that a target shooter is just as much at risk of seeing their sport disappear down the crapper as a sporting hunter or indeed a fisherman....

We are finding it hard enough to relocate a shooting club and the intervention and assistance from some of the shooting organaisations and NGBs has (speaking personally) been pathetic.

And we let these people chip away at our sports and win their little victories. All I sadly see is grains of sand disappearing from the beach and soon there wont be any alsand at all.

Glad my cup is @ 50%.

[Andy001]

Im not saying everything this video says is correct or even applies to us. However, he makes a few points about certain things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4mF...ature=youtu.be

[Geezer]

There's nothing in the press because there's nothing to report .

All that's happened is a minister has given a "fob off" answer to another MP who was trying to raise her publicity by talking about an incident in her constituency, which would never have happened in the first place if EXISTING laws had been complied with . Now she goes back home with the smarty points & TV time from standing up in the House to ask her question.

That is exactly my reading of this debate and the Minister's comments.

I'd also take issue with those complaining about the shooting organisations and Scotland. In Scotland, the SNP ran an election campaign with a clear manifesto commitment to licence airguns, won a landslide majority, and then implemented their manifesto. A situation in which BASC etc can not stop the inevitable. They can only at best influence how the manifesto commitment is implemented, and assist their members in complying with it.

[bighit]

That is exactly my reading of this debate and the Minister's comments.

I'd also take issue with those complaining about the shooting organisations and Scotland. In Scotland, the SNP ran an election campaign with a clear manifesto commitment to licence airguns, won a landslide majority, and then implemented their manifesto. A situation in which BASC etc can not stop the inevitable. They can only at best influence how the manifesto commitment is implemented, and assist their members in complying with it.

more MSP's than the SNP wanted the license scheme . tommy "shagger" sheridan wanted them banned all together .

yes BASC and SACS plus other people tried to give the facts and head the scheme off but the SNP would not listen along with other MSP's.


‘Dead hand’ of Whitehall blamed as Scottish ban on airguns is ruled out
Veto put on ‘damaging’ variation in legislation

The Herald24 Dec 2007ROBBIE DINWOODIE CHIEF SCOTTISH POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT robbie.dinwoodie@theherald.co.uk

KENNY MacASKILL: ‘Extremely disappointed’.
THE “dead hand of the Scotland Office” was yesterday blamed for a decision by UK ministers to block any attempt north of the border to bring in legislation to ban airguns.
Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill said the veto left Labour’s approach to devolution “threadbare and confused”. The minister said his Westminster counterpart Jack Straw had given sympathetic consideration at a meeting in July to the possibility of Scotland going it alone in toughening the firearms regulations.
But now the Home Secretary, Jacqui Smith, has vetoed this, claiming that any variation of the laws between Scotland and England would be “confusing and potentially damaging”.
Mr MacAskill said yester- day: “I am extremely disappointed that the Westminster Government has not recognised that Scotland needs responsibility for firearms legislation to deal with this extremely serious problem in Scotland, particularly air weapon crime.
“There is no doubt that when I met Jack Straw in July he was very sympathetic to the issue, as indeed he was on the important point that any prisoner transfer agreement with Libya must abide by the wishes of the Scottish Government.
“However, I detect the dead hand of the Scotland Office behind this. With the Scotland Office dogmatically against any further form of devolution — they have even talked about clawing powers back — not only are they ignoring the serious problem of air weapon crime in Scotland, they are leaving the Labour Party’s commitment to further devolution threadbare and confused.”
The Home Secretary, in her letter to Mr MacAskill, states: “I do not believe it would be sensible to devolve responsibility in the way you suggest.
“I think it would be confusing and potentially damaging to create a situation in which the entire body of firearms law in Scotland could ultimately differ markedly from that in England and Wales.
“There is no impediment to cross-border movement and it would be very difficult to enforce separate regimes and to prevent organised criminals from exploiting differences.”
Holyrood ministers would like to see the Scotland Act opened up to have firearms legislation removed from the the list of subjects reserved to Westminster, but given the seriousness of airgun crime in Scotland they would settle for a one-off deal on that issue.
More than 1000 Scots have been injured by airguns in the past eight years and there have been three deaths. One, of Easterhouse toddler Andrew Morton two years ago, led to a petition with more than 11,000 signatures being submitted to MSPs demanding that airguns be outlawed.
The convener of Solidarity, Tommy Sheridan, yesterday called on the SNP government to defy Whitehall and proceed with its own Holyrood bill banning airguns, challenging MPs to veto that.
He said: “I am enraged that Labour at Westminster should try to dictate to Scotland how we protect our communities. Two children and one adult have died recently and thousands more have been injured by airguns.
“When I was an MSP I introduced a bill to ban airguns and commissioned an opinion poll from System 3 that showed over 80% of Scots favour a ban. I believe the SNP should defy the Westminster ban and introduce a bill in parliament and let Labour try to veto this. The people of Scotland will back the Scottish Government in defying this disgraceful London ban.”