New air arms break barrel rifle

[Muskett]

We are picking on AA for not producing a break barrel springer the size of a 99, and tuned to perfection as the 99 requires to be half good. A 99 shop price is £200 but then needs the cost of a tune. Even after tune they cannot match a big heavy underlever rifle for pure ease of consistency. Sure some people can get hem to shoot well, but most of the target market can't or will struggle.

Thats a bit out of order in my book.

I happen to have a highly tuned 95 and its lovely, but it doesn't do any better than my Fenman. Thats because if I do something wrong in hold both can throw a shot further than a head shot on a pigeon.
Factory out of the box a AA TX or a HW77 style heavy will be less unforgiving. Anything light weight is going to struggle when they do throw a pellet off the group.
Think I'm repeating myself.

Anyhow, I agree with AA not to do something that isn't already well provided for. The things they do do they do well.

[robs5230]

We are picking on AA for not producing a break barrel springer the size of a 99, and tuned to perfection as the 99 requires to be half good. A 99 shop price is £200 but then needs the cost of a tune. Even after tune they cannot match a big heavy underlever rifle for pure ease of consistency. Sure some people can get hem to shoot well, but most of the target market can't or will struggle.

Thats a bit out of order in my book.

I happen to have a highly tuned 95 and its lovely, but it doesn't do any better than my Fenman. Thats because if I do something wrong in hold both can throw a shot further than a head shot on a pigeon.
Factory out of the box a AA TX or a HW77 style heavy will be less unforgiving. Anything light weight is going to struggle when they do throw a pellet off the group.
Think I'm repeating myself.

Anyhow, I agree with AA not to do something that isn't already well provided for. The things they do do they do well.

Not picking on AA at all just wishing they would as they have the ability to deliver a top quality rifle

[look no hands]

Not picking on AA at all just wishing they would as they have the ability to deliver a top quality rifle

So do BSA in theory but they don't, it's all down to cost, what it really needs is a very rich shooter to buy the company who is interested more in producing a rifle than a profit, I'm damn sure if one of the guys on here won the Euro millions (the one with the massive rollover) and they bought AA, then we'd see a lot of different rifles coming out, what you've got to remember is AA started out as an engineering company with nothing to do with the gun industry, they just fell into making guns by accident to keep afloat, so their loyalty lies in making parts for guns, yes it's in their mindset to supply a top quality gun but I don't think it's in their blood, Theoben where the other way round and where willing to push the envelope in the early days but look where it got them and that's what AA are worried about.

At the end of the day, if you want a 99 sized rifle then buy a 99 and spend a bit of cash on it to get it to the spec you want, there's plenty of people who will take your money to do so and whilst they are reworking it get them to put Air Arms on the cylinder

Pete

[TonyL]

Looking at Air Arms' huge sponsorship commitments at many events and the attendance of their top people too, like Claire West, I'd say that airguns and our sport are well and truly in the company's blood, Pete.

[oneseven]

Businesses should be prepared to take risks. If you stop innovating then sales will gradually wither. That said I can't see how a break barrel is a risk, its not like they would need much of an R&D budget to make one!

[look no hands]

Looking at Air Arms' huge sponsorship commitments at many events and the attendance of their top people too, like Claire West, I'd say that airguns and our sport are well and truly in the company's blood, Pete.

The old saying "speculate to accumulate" comes to mind and they are showing their faces at events to help sell more, like I said at the end of the day they have staff and bills to pay and nice cars to run, so they manufacture on the safe side to make sure that all happens, if they did want to properly commit and listen to their customers then they would bring out a break barrel, a left handed Prosport, make the Prosport cocking lever out of some other material and get rid of the wanky fishscale checkering, all the gripes everyone have been moaning about for the past few years, believe me I don't want or like to complain about one of my favorite British manufacturers but like what a lot of people have said they are not fully delivering to the faithful who worship the HFT ground they walk on and I can see why people do buy HWs instead.

Pete

[RobF]

The old saying "speculate to accumulate" comes to mind and they are showing their faces at events to help sell more, like I said at the end of the day they have staff and bills to pay and nice cars to run, so they manufacture on the safe side to make sure that all happens, if they did want to properly commit and listen to their customers then they would bring out a break barrel, a left handed Prosport, make the Prosport cocking lever out of some other material and get rid of the wanky fishscale checkering, all the gripes everyone have been moaning about for the past few years, believe me I don't want or like to complain about one of my favorite British manufacturers but like what a lot of people have said they are not fully delivering to the faithful who worship the HFT ground they walk on and I can see why people do buy HWs instead.

Pete

Pete there’s no doubt about AAs commitment. You only have to see Claire at the events talking to shooters weekend in and out to see that.
But you aren’t going to see changes that a tiny % are mentioning out of the stacks of rifles they sell every day which would affect current lines and stock which is selling just fine anyway.

When we ran the April fools Claire said her line rang off the hook for two days solid. We had something like 10,000 reactions online to it across various media. But that’s it. 10,000 likes on forums etc doesn’t translate into 10,000 sales, more like 100 at best. And 2 days leaves 363 other days in the year.

Hft and ft are big sports as far as shooting goes but compared to what the average joe shoots and buys day in and day out they aren’t.

Honda didn’t get where it was making 900cc superbikes. It got there selling millions of c50 step throughs. And in the same way race bikes are only a relative of what are used on the street you wouldn’t doubt Hondas commitment because the fire blade doesn’t exactly fit your idea of how Marc Marquezs bike should be replicated. The chequering on a stock which most ft shooters don’t use is really of no concern.

If the things weren’t selling they’d change it. Or they’d remove it. The fact that it hasn’t changed and is being sold still suggests AA are quite happy that the level of tweaking the internet wants isn’t justified. And if it was I think you’d see a 3rd party offering a choice first.

[look no hands]

Pete there’s no doubt about AAs commitment. You only have to see Claire at the events talking to shooters weekend in and out to see that.
But you aren’t going to see changes that a tiny % are mentioning out of the stacks of rifles they sell every day which would affect current lines and stock which is selling just fine anyway.

When we ran the April fools Claire said her line rang off the hook for two days solid. We had something like 10,000 reactions online to it across various media. But that’s it. 10,000 likes on forums etc doesn’t translate into 10,000 sales, more like 100 at best. And 2 days leaves 363 other days in the year.

Hft and ft are big sports as far as shooting goes but compared to what the average joe shoots and buys day in and day out they aren’t.

Honda didn’t get where it was making 900cc superbikes. It got there selling millions of c50 step throughs. And in the same way race bikes are only a relative of what are used on the street you wouldn’t doubt Hondas commitment because the fire blade doesn’t exactly fit your idea of how Marc Marquezs bike should be replicated. The chequering on a stock which most ft shooters don’t use is really of no concern.

If the things weren’t selling they’d change it. Or they’d remove it. The fact that it hasn’t changed and is being sold still suggests AA are quite happy that the level of tweaking the internet wants isn’t justified. And if it was I think you’d see a 3rd party offering a choice first.

Rob I totally agree what you and Tony are saying and I see where you are coming from, I don't doubt their commitment to the shooting sport at all and I've seen them many a time in the past giving rifles and gear away as prizes FOC to events, basically I'm backing up what you're saying, what I'm trying to explain is that the concerns and wants from the very tiny proportion of shooters (the ones who want a lefty PS and a steel PS underlever and a break barrel) are going on deaf ears because of the costs involved for very little gain and potential risk to the company (which I totally understand and wouldn't want them to make) BUT if they were fully 110% committed then they would offer the products but they don't need to, as like you say the rifles are flying off the shelves (a good thing to see in this current climate), now I'm totally happy with everything the PS has to offer (it could do with being a bit lighter but if that's going to upset it's excellent firing cycle then I'll leave it as it is) I've never had a problem with the alloy underlever and I'm not a freak of nature so don't require a lefty stock but the fishtail checkering could be changed at the press of a button and at no cost due to it being laser cut, I think the new skipline checkering on the PS stocks is beautiful.

At the end of the day if somebody like Tony Leach (our old compadre Bigtoe) was running the company then we'd see the changes and also have the 25mm short stroke internals (or smaller knowing him) back in the UK models as he would be pushing the envelope as far as he could and would want to see the customer get what they wanted.

Pete

[robs5230]

At the end of the day, if you want a 99 sized rifle then buy a 99 and spend a bit of cash on it to get it to the spec you want, there's plenty of people who will take your money to do so and whilst they are reworking it get them to put Air Arms on the cylinder

Pete

I wont be buying a 99.
I certainly have the ability to fix a 99 but just wont on principle.
Neither would I buy any new product knowing it needed work to make it operate as it should.
The 99 is a cheap rifle and no matter how much money i could spend on it , it wont give me what I want.
The only thing that appeals to me about the 99 are its proportions

In fact, the 99 has the best anti tamper system ever designed.
It has to be stripped and worked on or it will eat itself. The minute it's stripped, any guarantee is up the swannee. Its actually a master stroke in marketing. Herman is laughing all the way to the bank

[bozzer]

They aren't in the business of providing us with what we'd like.

They feed the hippo to make profit.

They noticed that HFT was popular and getting some press in the mags and internet sites etc. They spotted that a few thousand people shot HFT with a PCP. So they produce the HFT500 and flog it at a hefty price knowing that HFT PCP shooters will buy them. Nice little earner.

There may be a few on here saying they'd like a lightweight 12fp AA break barrel. What will they have to sell them for and how much profit will they make? Probably little profit ... hence ... not happening.

[robs5230]

They aren't in the business of providing us with what we'd like.

They feed the hippo to make profit.

They noticed that HFT was popular and getting some press in the mags and internet sites etc. They spotted that a few thousand people shot HFT with a PCP. So they produce the HFT500 and flog it at a hefty price knowing that HFT PCP shooters will buy them. Nice little earner.

There may be a few on here saying they'd like a lightweight 12fp AA break barrel. What will they have to sell them for and how much profit will they make? Probably little profit ... hence ... not happening.

I agree with all that but just wonder why they dont seem to want a piece of that sector of the market.
I guess springer development as far as the major manufacturers go has just ground to a halt.

[RobF]

I agree with all that but just wonder why they dont seem to want a piece of that sector of the market.
I guess springer development as far as the major manufacturers go has just ground to a halt.

Because of the massive costs in setup and getting to market. 11 people on an internet forum somewhere isn't going to cover it.

[look no hands]

I wont be buying a 99.
I certainly have the ability to fix a 99 but just wont on principle.
Neither would I buy any new product knowing it needed work to make it operate as it should.
The 99 is a cheap rifle and no matter how much money i could spend on it , it wont give me what I want.
The only thing that appeals to me about the 99 are its proportions

In fact, the 99 has the best anti tamper system ever designed.
It has to be stripped and worked on or it will eat itself. The minute it's stripped, any guarantee is up the swannee. Its actually a master stroke in marketing. Herman is laughing all the way to the bank

Totally agree.

The thing is why are they still sending them out like they are, what it really needed was everyone who bought one in the first place to return them for fixing and then they would have soon properly fixed the problem when their profit margins got hit but as long as the lemmings keep buying them and fixing them themselves then they will keep churning them out as they are.

Pete

[Muskett]

Webley like so many companies were strapped for cash, taxed to buggery, had poor management, were relying on dated machinery, and in old buildings. No investment, no dynamism, and relying on pile it high sell it cheep.
Manufacturing in the 70's was in decline for good reason, and the work force on the dole.

Much was lack of realising what the market wanted and only begrudgingly providing anything much at all. To sum up just look at the triggers.


Anyhow, AA know what they do well.
FWB brought out their Sport last year but still failed to give something as desirable as their old one! That was a clanger!
Speculate to accumulate is fine if you are making good profits and tax burden isn't extortionate. Think its the case most UK gun makers, after the initial investment, just about hang in there. No wriggle room to make a whopping mistake.
A little springer with all the "improvements" is a risk if its going to better whats already out there.

HW30? Did they always have a Rekcord trigger? Whatever I bought and sold a few years back didn't; skinny barrel too. Think they have made some changes??? Think the 99 a better bet?? Thankfully, I'm not in the market for one.

[Telephonepete]

We are picking on AA for not producing a break barrel springer the size of a 99, and tuned to perfection as the 99 requires to be half good. A 99 shop price is £200 but then needs the cost of a tune. Even after tune they cannot match a big heavy underlever rifle for pure ease of consistency. Sure some people can get hem to shoot well, but most of the target market can't or will struggle.

Thats a bit out of order in my book.

I happen to have a highly tuned 95 and its lovely, but it doesn't do any better than my Fenman. Thats because if I do something wrong in hold both can throw a shot further than a head shot on a pigeon.
Factory out of the box a AA TX or a HW77 style heavy will be less unforgiving. Anything light weight is going to struggle when they do throw a pellet off the group.
Think I'm repeating myself.

Anyhow, I agree with AA not to do something that isn't already well provided for. The things they do do they do well.

you are talking about hold sensitivity. the 95 in .177 is dreadful for that. the 99s in either calibre is not at all hold sensitive. that is why it is a much better bet than the 95.