Haviland & Gunn 1872 Air Pistol.

[Abasmajor]

I was a bit surprised at the estimate for this air pistol coming up at a forthcoming auction. I know it must be ultra rare, but it still seems on the high side for such a basic air pistol. Probably of greater interest to a specialist collector of american air pistols than a more general collector.

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/a...2-a82d00a6a5b1

Regards
Brian

[Garvin]

I was a bit surprised at the estimate for this air pistol coming up at a forthcoming auction. I know it must be ultra rare, but it still seems on the high side for such a basic air pistol. Probably of greater interest to a specialist collector of american air pistols than a more general collector.

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/a...2-a82d00a6a5b1

Regards
Brian

Yes, incredibly rare and important pistol but without the original hook it does seem over-valued. This is what it should look like.

[draitzer]

That's a good starting point for one of these if it were in the States. They are quite rare and it's even harder to find one with no missing parts (hell, Beeman famously sprung $7K !!! for a nice one in the 2003 Kasock auction but that's another story).

The very early American 'factory-made' airguns do attract considerable interest here, much more than individually-built gallery guns.

Don R.

[DT Fletcher]

I found a nice one of these at an antique show and picked it up for $1,000US. Later that same year sold it for $1,500 however I did add an original advertising flyer to it. The buyer, a truly difficult person to deal with, ended up being furious at me for overpricing it. After buying it one of the larger dealers/collectors told him it was hardly worth half of what he paid for it. Then, shortly thereafter, the Kasok collection auction happened where Beeman REALLY overpaid for one.

[Benelli B76]

Yes, incredibly rare and important pistol but without the original hook it does seem over-valued. This is what it should look like.

Danny, I see that the Germans copied the cocking mechanism for my Diana model 1 tinplate. The benefit of the American pistol is you can use it as a self defence item after shooting it.

Baz

[Abasmajor]

I found a nice one of these at an antique show and picked it up for $1,000US. Later that same year sold it for $1,500 however I did add an original advertising flyer to it. The buyer, a truly difficult person to deal with, ended up being furious at me for overpricing it. After buying it one of the larger dealers/collectors told him it was hardly worth half of what he paid for it. Then, shortly thereafter, the Kasok collection auction happened where Beeman REALLY overpaid for one.

Hi Dean,

Do we have any idea how many of these little pistols were produced or are known to have survived?

Brian

[ccdjg]

Interestingly this pistol was also advertised on various occasions as "Morse's Patent Improved Pistol" at 15 dollars a dozen, probably sold under some sort of licence obtained from Haviland & Gunn. Quackenbush advertised darts and slugs specifically for the Morse pistol (for example in his 1877 catalogue), so I suspect that quite a few of these little pistols were made. I know of one American collector who has (or had) three examples. So who was Morse? All I could find out from my own research is that he was a businessman/ retailer from Little Falls, New York, and opened a new store in 1879. Can anyone add any more?

The pistol does not look much like the design described by Haviland & Gunn in their original patent, so perhaps Morse had a hand in improving it to the form that was eventually marketed.

[Abasmajor]

Interestingly this pistol was also advertised on various occasions as "Morse's Patent Improved Pistol" at 15 dollars a dozen, probably sold under some sort of licence obtained from Haviland & Gunn. Quackenbush advertised darts and slugs specifically for the Morse pistol (for example in his 1877 catalogue), so I suspect that quite a few of these little pistols were made. I know of one American collector who has (or had) three examples. So who was Morse? All I could find out from my own research is that he was a businessman/ retailer from Little Falls, New York, and opened a new store in 1879. Can anyone add any more?

The pistol does not look much like the design described by Haviland & Gunn in their original patent, so perhaps Morse had a hand in improving it to the form that was eventually marketed.

Hello John,

Thanks for the additional information. Given the 15 dollars a dozen price tag, I guess they were aimed at the lower end of the market, so you might have expected many more to have been produced with a consequently higher survival rate.

Brian

[gingernut]

For a country facing economic ruin (again) £900 is a silly amount of money for this.

[Abasmajor]

For a country facing economic ruin (again) £900 is a silly amount of money for this.

I would have thought this particular item will return to its country of origin rather than be bought by a British collector.

Regards
Brian

[DT Fletcher]

Hi Dean,

Do we have any idea how many of these little pistols were produced or are known to have survived?

Brian

As far as I know, there is no way of telling. Although certainly rare today, my impression is that these little HG guns are on the more common side. I've seen 2 or 3 go up for sale, which in antique/rare airguns is quite a few.

[Abasmajor]

As far as I know, there is no way of telling. Although certainly rare today, my impression is that these little HG guns are on the more common side. I've seen 2 or 3 go up for sale, which in antique/rare airguns is quite a few.

Hi Dean,

Thanks for that. This is certainly the first example Iv'e seen for sale here in the UK.
Regards
Brian

[Garvin]

I don't think I've ever seen one for sale in the UK, not a complete one anyway. I think a true mark of rarity is if you really really want one, can you get one? Probably that was the thinking behind Robert Beeman's 'moment of madness' in 2003.

[JimmieDee]

Danny, I see that the Germans copied the cocking mechanism for my Diana model 1 tinplate. The benefit of the American pistol is you can use it as a self defence item after shooting it.

Baz

Indeed Diana did copy it. But they copied it from Michael Flurscheim and his MF pistol for whom they worked for before starting their own business. Flurscheim most likely copied it from Haviland and Gunn. Also, Diana, or correctly Mayer and Grammelspacher of Rastatt, first used this design in their very first post, the MGR.

A comprehensive article with hi-res photos about the MF and Eisenwerke Gaggenau can be found here.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/jimmi...9436289154244/

And a comprehensive article with hi-res about the MGR and Mayer and Grammelspacher of Rastatt later to rebrand themselves as Diana can be found here:

https://www.facebook.com/notes/jimmi...3866403377899/

All the best,
Jimmie

[micky2]

I don't think I've ever seen one for sale in the UK, not a complete one anyway. I think a true mark of rarity is if you really really want one, can you get one? Probably that was the thinking behind Robert Beeman's 'moment of madness' in 2003.

Hi Danny, the thing is if money is no object, you will nealy always be able to get what you wont. it's a bit different for us mere mortals. just think you could get a decent Colt/Adams for that sought of money they are asking at Wallis. it will be intresting to see what it goes for.