Choke removal and accuracy.

[Randy Bohannon]

Thinking about this from a centrefire perspective for a moment...

The top benchrest barrel makes try and get a barrel that is as dimensionally uniform as possible.

The air gauge their top barrels as part of the QC process and in the case of some manufacturers mark the most consistent as premium.

The do not guarantee that the latter barrels will shoot better than their normal barrels, which are after all from the same production lines, but point out that one is giving oneself the best fighting chance.

A few of them also mark the tight end of the barrel so that it ends up at the muzzle, we are only talking about 1/10000th here at most though.

It seems that as long as the bore of the barrel gets no larger, accuracy is not affected.

Therefore would choke be a traditional way of enduring this given that airgun barrels were made from inferior materials and not to the same standard as CF barrels historically?

[robs5230]

Lol, love to see it when you are being picky . Be as picky as you like. This is about establishing facts and knowledge. Where's the harm in that?

Yes I have tested choked and non choked barrels, and I've selected choked. Yes I've got pictures of the groups that the choked barrels shoot for reference. I haven't kept the ones that weren't as good as there doesn't seem to be a point to doing that. But next time I can.

I'm asking for the evidence to support such statements. That's all.

Pushing a pellet though a barrel tells you nothing. Or ok, what does it tell you when you look at a pellet? Its got rifling marks? Yep.

So what I'm asking for is a baseline to draw conclusions from. On subjects like this, facts often seem to get swamped by people just saying things without any qualification. "Groups are better"... better than what? If you've got a group that's 2" wide at 25 yards then improving on it isn't that much of a trick and could even suggest a fault with the crown.

We had all this with the smooth twist barrels. I think it took about 2 years to find a single group picture of a .177 12ft-lb despite the threads on the subjects being awash with opinion that they were brilliant and despite competitions of any nature using 12ft-lb being a desert of anyone using them.

Here's a start on the baseline though, not sure if you can see these, the last image... (i thought attachments were working here but seems not)

https://shooting-the-breeze.com/thre...d.18696/page-4

I did neglect to note the amount of shots on that last image. It won't be less than 5. I believe its 10, but that's obviously not a definite fact, so work on it being 5+.

So is a unchoked barrel as good as that? My experience says not. I have access to barrels so can test it with group pics if you like in the future. Maybe you can do some shots with yours and see what you come up with

I've just read that whole thread on the link you gave. Some bloomin impressive shooting there but i see no reference to shortening a barrel (though I did read pretty fast and may have missed it). Theres no doubt that some choked barrels can produce excellent results, but what Pete asked was does shortening a barrel and removing the choke result in a loss of accuracy.
I'd never (well probably never) have cause to shorten a PCP barrel as so many are offered with multiple barrel lengths.
But back in the 90's, a HW80k had a 16" barrel. Add any sort of mod to that and you have a musket. I like short rifles and have shortened many (probably more that a dozen) HW80 barrels and have had no loss of accuracy. One or 2 dianas over the years have been subjected to a similar process with the same result.
I currently don't have any of the rifles I've shortened. I only have the cabinet room to keep a few and do like to change rifles a fair bit. If I'd have kept them all I'd need a 40' shipping container as a cabinet.

Oh and apologies if any of my previous post came across as offensive or aggressive. Certainly not meant.

I'm 51 now and have hunted for probably 35 years with air rifles. Only this year have I joined a club for the first time. My visits are still only to zero rifles after working on them or on getting a new (to me) rifle. My experience is of pellets hitting the desired mark on live quarry.

[32:1]

It's not something that I've ever done, so can't comment and, as has been said, would have to be verified with measured before and after results.

My guess would be that having a choke introduces consistency in barrels where the measurements elsewhere in the bore are less than perfect / ideal?

I dont have a clue what goes on inside our barrels.. Wheres BigAl when you need him

I do know that my best/most consistently accurately grouping barrels are chokeless, I also know each barrel is different and until I tried a chokeless barrel my best barrels were choked as I didnt know any better, and this is not a statement confirming ones better than the other(choke v chokeless) I could just have real bad choked barrels after all !!!


Even if I posted my own results now, some would think their fake pics anyway
Never mind, each to their own I guess but Im happy as Ive tested many, many times with dozens of pellet types/sizes/dies


Happy Shooting

Chris

[RobF]

I've just read that whole thread on the link you gave. Some bloomin impressive shooting there but i see no reference to shortening a barrel (though I did read pretty fast and may have missed it). Theres no doubt that some choked barrels can produce excellent results, but what Pete asked was does shortening a barrel and removing the choke result in a loss of accuracy.
I'd never (well probably never) have cause to shorten a PCP barrel as so many are offered with multiple barrel lengths.
But back in the 90's, a HW80k had a 16" barrel. Add any sort of mod to that and you have a musket. I like short rifles and have shortened many (probably more that a dozen) HW80 barrels and have had no loss of accuracy. One or 2 dianas over the years have been subjected to a similar process with the same result.
I currently don't have any of the rifles I've shortened. I only have the cabinet room to keep a few and do like to change rifles a fair bit. If I'd have kept them all I'd need a 40' shipping container as a cabinet.

Oh and apologies if any of my previous post came across as offensive or aggressive. Certainly not meant.

No worries, I really am not trying to be a dick I completely get it. If you ask me am I going to lop off the choke on that you're going to get an unsurprising NO . I wouldn't even let Phil clean up the area outside the crown, it's still got the rough end cut on it. What floats my boat is accuracy and precision.

I think it's a question of expectations, and I think this is where it gets a little tricky. I'm happy with that group, its a benchmark. And if the gun can't do it, then I'm not. That can be down to a barrel load of factors, but its my benchmark so that is what I'm always trying to maintain. I or it doesn't always manage that. But that's what I'm looking not to lose the ability to do.

That's what I was trying to clumsily get to.

If your benchmark is shooting 2" groups at 30 yds then that's your expectation. Could unchoking ruin that? I don't know, but I'd say its unlikely (as a complete guess). So the answer to that example is no it doesn't, where as in my example I wouldn't like to risk it, and I'm not even convinced the next barrel that's machined up will be as good (based upon the fact I tested 2 at the time).

But there's nothing in having different expectations. Quite frankly I see a range of group sizes down the club and but I also see a similar amount of smiles across them, which is what counts. What is better? A long HW80 with a loud barrel that never gets shot and enjoyed or one that looks sweet with a silencer that gets enjoyed week after week? I think the latter.

But I think there's a lot of untapped potential in every day airguns and I think if that's explored then some of the answers may be a little different. Shooting down the club indoors I see some truly shocking groups that aren't the fault of the shooter, but normally the pellets and secondly things like scopes being pa'd to 100yds or silencers stuffed with cotton wool etc, real basic stuff. I think it's easy for things to be camouflaged by that.

Reckon it needs a proper test to sort it out. Just need the time really.

[robs5230]

It's not something that I've ever done, so can't comment and, as has been said, would have to be verified with measured before and after results.

My guess would be that having a choke introduces consistency in barrels where the measurements elsewhere in the bore are less than perfect / ideal?

Maybe air rifle barrels are choked for that reason. I don't know.
But a decision by a manufacturer to choke a barrel wouldn't necessarily mean that all their barrels were inconsistent before choking. The manufacturing process may mean some are better than others before choking and choking evens this out. Then again I've come across bad choked barrels too and I'm sure others have. My before and after results when shortening HW springer barrels show no difference.

[32:1]

[QUOTE=RobF

Pushing a pellet though a barrel tells you nothing. Or ok, what does it tell you when you look at a pellet? Its got rifling marks? Yep.
)[/QUOTE]

Rob
Pushing a pellet through tells a lot, visually and by feel.

I'm no expert thats why I send mine away but even I can see and feel the before and after, and as goes my grouping, if I do my bit I can get 1/2" ten shot at 50yds, rested of course and sorry I haven't read the link you put up yet. Ive had real bad chokes that once removed Ive gained near 40fps (.177) they were that tight.

Chris

[Phil Russell]

I have no real trouble believing all the comments made on here so far but wonder if there is anyone willing to conduct a small experiment?
With your choked rifle, shoot 10 x 10 shot groups at say 30 yards, preferably bench rested to get the best accuracy and consistent conditions. Do this with maybe 5 different pellet makes. Record the individual pellet strike parameters for each 10 shot group as mm displacement from the 'bull point'.
Now remove the choke on your rifle and repeat the process.
It would then be possible to analyse the data obtained to see if there was a difference between the choked and unchoked barrels and whether the results were consistent over different pellet makes. Proper statistical analysis would be important. I think using different pellet makes is important as removing a choke may well influence individual pellet make performance more than other makes. But this is only my thought; I have no evidence.
Of course, such an experiment will not settle the debate in its entirety but may well give at least a preliminary insight to what can happen.
Cheers, Phil

[32:1]

Hi Phil

Ive only removed the choke when the barrel would not shoot or group very well, and every barrel Ive had that done to has shown an improvement as obviously the issue was the choke, some can be polished but thats not the OP's question. I also have choked barrels that shoot very well to and theres no need to work on them, although as I said back a bit, my best barrels are chokeless.


Chris

[robs5230]

No worries, I really am not trying to be a dick I completely get it. If you ask me am I going to lop off the choke on that you're going to get an unsurprising NO . I wouldn't even let Phil clean up the area outside the crown, it's still got the rough end cut on it. What floats my boat is accuracy and precision.

I think it's a question of expectations, and I think this is where it gets a little tricky. I'm happy with that group, its a benchmark. And if the gun can't do it, then I'm not. That can be down to a barrel load of factors, but its my benchmark so that is what I'm always trying to maintain. I or it doesn't always manage that. But that's what I'm looking not to lose the ability to do.

That's what I was trying to clumsily get to.

If your benchmark is shooting 2" groups at 30 yds then that's your expectation. Could unchoking ruin that? I don't know, but I'd say its unlikely (as a complete guess). So the answer to that example is no it doesn't, where as in my example I wouldn't like to risk it, and I'm not even convinced the next barrel that's machined up will be as good (based upon the fact I tested 2 at the time).

But there's nothing in having different expectations. Quite frankly I see a range of group sizes down the club and but I also see a similar amount of smiles across them, which is what counts. What is better? A long HW80 with a loud barrel that never gets shot and enjoyed or one that looks sweet with a silencer that gets enjoyed week after week? I think the latter.

But I think there's a lot of untapped potential in every day airguns and I think if that's explored then some of the answers may be a little different. Shooting down the club indoors I see some truly shocking groups that aren't the fault of the shooter, but normally the pellets and secondly things like scopes being pa'd to 100yds or silencers stuffed with cotton wool etc, real basic stuff. I think it's easy for things to be camouflaged by that.

Reckon it needs a proper test to sort it out. Just need the time really.

With the greatest of respect, just because I dont punch paper doesn't mean my benchmark is 2" groups at 30 yards. I zero at 35 and expect ragged 1 hole groups at worst with a pcp from a bench and around 10mm groups at the same range from a springer. All my rabbit shooting is standing unsupported. Shots are taken when presented.
If I cant place a shot on the spot where it needs to be on a rabbit's head, with a rifle, I wouldn't use that rifle.
I certainly remove the choke on a rifle that gave me a 2" group. In fact I'd remove the whole barrel.
I find it odd that there may be an assumption that I'd have lesser expectations from my kit and yet shoot live quarry

[RobF]

With the greatest of respect, just because I dont punch paper doesn't mean my benchmark is 2" groups at 30 yards.y

No I wasn't trying to intimate it was. Apologies if it came across that way. I was saying that some people's expectations might be that, because that's their experience. So if you ask them if they've not noticed any drop off after a lop off, the answer would be no.

I remember a mate who I used to shoot with a lot who had a rifle shortened by Mr. Cardew who said he'd probably not notice a loss in group size out to 30yds. At the time we thought 30 yds was a long way... it was all the way to the fence! (...we had a steel backstop)

I see all sorts down the club from people not happy if they don't go through the same hole standing at 25m, to people quite happy with 2" groups at 10m bench-rested (I am not joking). Some are quite happy just doing better groups than their mate. Smiles all around.

As I said it's all about the person's individual benchmark. Just because that might be further or closer or tighter or wider than another's doesn't matter if they're happy with that... but it doesn't mean the answer is always yes either.

It's a bit like asking "do you lose accuracy when you change to cheap pellets..." For some the answer is yes, for some no, and for others they'll say they don't care because the pellets are cheap

[robs5230]

No I wasn't trying to intimate it was. Apologies if it came across that way. I was saying that some people's expectations might be that, because that's their experience. So if you ask them if they've not noticed any drop off after a lop off, the answer would be no.

I remember a mate who I used to shoot with a lot who had a rifle shortened by Mr. Cardew who said he'd probably not notice a loss in group size out to 30yds. At the time we thought 30 yds was a long way... it was all the way to the fence! (...we had a steel backstop)

I see all sorts down the club from people not happy if they don't go through the same hole standing at 25m, to people quite happy with 2" groups at 10m bench-rested (I am not joking). Some are quite happy just doing better groups than their mate. Smiles all around.

As I said it's all about the person's individual benchmark. Just because that might be further or closer or tighter or wider than another's doesn't matter if they're happy with that... but it doesn't mean the answer is always yes either.

It's a bit like asking "do you lose accuracy when you change to cheap pellets..." For some the answer is yes, for some no, and for others they'll say they don't care because the pellets are cheap

I get you

[look no hands]

Weihrauch and Diana barrels. The last time the subject of choked barrels came up regarding HW, I was informed all HW barrels are choked.
I've shortened HW80 barrels to 10" without losing accuracy.

The barrels I've had shortened have been BSA's and HW's, I was told by Tony Wall at SFS that HW barrels are unchocked and I can confirm that an HW95 I sent to Tony to be "Banshee'd" lost no accuracy after being shortened, I once had a choked BSA Airsporter RB2 barrel shortened and it was worse after shortening, I currently have a .22 Supersport barrel that has no felt choke (it hasn't been shortened either) which is unusual for BSA barrels as they are normally choked, I've not tried it on a rifle yet (it was a E gay purchase) but I may well put it on my Challenger as I think the .25 barrel I currently have on it will go on my new (too me) Supersport when it turns up.

Pete

[RobF]

I guess it could be down to the barrel as well.

I find LW tight all the way down to the choke where they get tighter. But I've been loaned on barrel (can't remember make) which was seemingly choked both ends, because the middle was so baggy that once past the lead in I could blow it down the barrel with my mouth.

[robs5230]

The barrels I've had shortened have been BSA's and HW's, I was told by Tony Wall at SFS that HW barrels are unchocked and I can confirm that an HW95 I sent to Tony to be "Banshee'd" lost no accuracy after being shortened, I once had a choked BSA Airsporter RB2 barrel shortened and it was worse after shortening, I currently have a .22 Supersport barrel that has no felt choke (it hasn't been shortened either) which is unusual for BSA barrels as they are normally choked, I've not tried it on a rifle yet (it was a E gay purchase) but I may well put it on my Challenger as I think the .25 barrel I currently have on it will go on my new (too me) Supersport when it turns up.

Pete

Funny you should say that about HW barrels not being choked. I've always believed that and stuck by my opinion that the only "choking" on HW springer barrels is imparted from the crimping of foresight grooves.
However, I was royally shot down either on here or the "other" forum less than 2 months ago by those who stated without doubt, and seemed to have some proof, that they were.
I suppose with this being in doubt, after all that, all I can say categorically is that I've shortened HW and Diana springer barrels with no loss of accuracy.

[look no hands]

Funny you should say that about HW barrels not being choked. I've always believed that and stuck by my opinion that the only "choking" on HW springer barrels is imparted from the crimping of foresight grooves.
However, I was royally shot down either on here or the "other" forum less than 2 months ago by those who stated without doubt, and seemed to have some proof, that they were.
I suppose with this being in doubt, after all that, all I can say categorically is that I've shortened HW and Diana springer barrels with no loss of accuracy.

You mention about shortening Diana barrels as well, I was very tempted to shorten the barrel on my Diana 34 but after pushing a pellet through the bore I found the tightest choke on any of my rifles, you really do have to give the pellet a really good shove to get it out the end, I'm now reluctant to do so.

Pete