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Thread: Cortina d'Ampezzo

  1. #1
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    Cortina d'Ampezzo

    So, got a response from the kind people at the Celje Regional Museum and they provided a high resolution picture of what I see as a most historically interesting airguns. Perhaps most important, is that it is marked "Cortina d'Ampezzo" which is the hometown of Bartholomew Girardoni. This almost certainly is one of the oldest known Tyrollean airguns. It almost certainly pre-dates the M-1780 Austrian military air rifle. I would venture to say that this air rifle design is what Girardoni built his design on. So, we're talking early, maybe circa 1750.

    Some more info:
    total length 910 mm,
    length of gun barrel 458 mm,
    caliber 9,8 mm

    The large flats on the barrel suggests to me that this single shot was loaded by unscrewing the barrel and carefully placing the shot in the breech.

    Cortina d'Ampezzo w- info by Dean Fletcher - Photographer - Portland, on Flickr

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by DT Fletcher View Post
    So, got a response from the kind people at the Celje Regional Museum and they provided a high resolution picture of what I see as a most historically interesting airguns. Perhaps most important, is that it is marked "Cortina d'Ampezzo" which is the hometown of Bartholomew Girardoni. This almost certainly is one of the oldest known Tyrollean airguns. It almost certainly pre-dates the M-1780 Austrian military air rifle. I would venture to say that this air rifle design is what Girardoni built his design on. So, we're talking early, maybe circa 1750.

    Some more info:
    total length 910 mm,
    length of gun barrel 458 mm,
    caliber 9,8 mm

    The large flats on the barrel suggests to me that this single shot was loaded by unscrewing the barrel and carefully placing the shot in the breech.

    Cortina d'Ampezzo w- info by Dean Fletcher - Photographer - Portland, on Flickr

    Thank you for an interesting post. Dont take this a a criticism, its just a query as to why it almost certainly predates the M1780 military air rifle. BTW thats a healthy sized cocking lever

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenwayjames View Post
    Thank you for an interesting post. Dont take this a a criticism, its just a query as to why it almost certainly predates the M1780 military air rifle. BTW thats a healthy sized cocking lever
    It's just that everything about this particular gun is so primitive compared to the Girandoni. That and it's extreme rarity: this is the only known example that I can recall ever seeing. There's nothing like it in Wolff or any other book on the subject. To my eyes, it's screaming, early!

    Now, after breakfast and first cup of Joe:

    First, you have asked a very fair question. It would be wonderful to be able to point to some reference to provide the answer but no reference for Tyrollean air guns exists.

    One thing I may or may not have discussed on this forum is the history of Tyrollean guns, airgun or powder: it simply doesn't exist. One of the biggest reasons being that the guns don't exist. In the museums of Tyrol, usually the most you will see of early guns are blackened locks from guns that had been burnt. The French disarmed the Tyrolleans during the Napoleonic wars, Cortina d'Amprezzo was burnt to the ground in retaliation. Then, at the end of WWII, the American occupying force disarmed the Tyrolleans again and burned all of their guns regardless of age or historical significance. So, today, we have no reference guides when it comes to Tyrollean airguns. Which makes any analysis more an art than a science. So, no matter what, I'm open to being questioned on this stuff and invite alternative (educated) views.

    What my education on these ancient airguns consists of is reading all of the known references on these airguns. Plus, as thorough review of available pictures and descriptions of these guns from auctions, museums, etc.

    Gauging the era any particular airgun is from is an important element in studying them. In some cases, like the Cortina d'Amprezzo airgun, all we have to go on is how it looks. In reviewing these airguns it becomes fairly obvious that the designs changed with time. Not unlike how automobile cars change over time: there's no genius in identifying any 1920s from a 1950s car or a '50s car from an '80s, etc. It's the same with these airguns: only, of course, we simply don't have the catalogs and pictures to help us out.

    With this Cortina d'Amprezzo airgun, I look at the classic Girardoni (either the GIRARDONI INUENIT ET FECIT gun or the English example (Baker/Curri)) and later Austrian airguns (Contriner, etc) and ask the question, "where does this airgun belong on the date line compared to these other examples?" The answer, to my eyes, is before not after.
    Last edited by DT Fletcher; 13-12-2017 at 09:08 PM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by DT Fletcher View Post
    It's just that everything about this particular gun is so primitive compared to the Girandoni. That and it's extreme rarity: this is the only known example that I can recall ever seeing. There's nothing like it in Wolff or any other book on the subject. To my eyes, it's screaming, early!

    Now, after breakfast and first cup of Joe:

    First, you have asked a very fair question. It would be wonderful to be able to point to some reference to provide the answer but no reference for Tyrollean air guns exists.

    One thing I may or may not have discussed on this forum is the history of Tyrollean guns, airgun or powder: it simply doesn't exist. One of the biggest reasons being that the guns don't exist. In the museums of Tyrol, usually the most you will see of early guns are blackened locks from guns that had been burnt. The French disarmed the Tyrolleans during the Napoleonic wars, Cortina d'Amprezzo was burnt to the ground in retaliation. Then, at the end of WWII, the American occupying force disarmed the Tyrolleans again and burned all of their guns regardless of age or historical significance. So, today, we have no reference guides when it comes to Tyrollean airguns. Which makes any analysis more an art than a science. So, no matter what, I'm open to being questioned on this stuff and invite alternative (educated) views.

    What my education on these ancient airguns consists of is reading all of the known references on these airguns. Plus, as thorough review of available pictures and descriptions of these guns from auctions, museums, etc.

    Gauging the era any particular airgun is from is an important element in studying them. In some cases, like the Cortina d'Amprezzo airgun, all we have to go on is how it looks. In reviewing these airguns it becomes fairly obvious that the designs changed with time. Not unlike how automobile cars change over time: there's no genius in identifying any 1920s from a 1950s car or a '50s car from an '80s, etc. It's the same with these airguns: only, of course, we simply don't have the catalogs and pictures to help us out.

    With this Cortina d'Amprezzo airgun, I look at the classic Girardoni (either the GIRARDONI INUENIT ET FECIT gun or the English example (Baker/Curri)) and later Austrian airguns (Contriner, etc) and ask the question, "where does this airgun belong on the date line compared to these other examples?" The answer, to my eyes, is before not after.

    It certainly is primitive looking especially the rear of the butt. That is either very crude workmanship or a later repair. It does look to have been in a fire and suffered. The hammer just doesnt look right, its out of proportion and of a weird shape. Could this be a later single shot roughly made copy? The workmanship looks crude in some areas but the main casting housing the mechanism looks well made. Maybe some anonymous tinkerer, after the Napoleonic war, got hold of some fire damaged parts and had a go at making something out of them? Girardoni wouldnt have used this as a pattern on which to base his 1780 model surely?

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    Quote Originally Posted by greenwayjames View Post
    It certainly is primitive looking especially the rear of the butt. That is either very crude workmanship or a later repair. It does look to have been in a fire and suffered. The hammer just doesnt look right, its out of proportion and of a weird shape. Could this be a later single shot roughly made copy? The workmanship looks crude in some areas but the main casting housing the mechanism looks well made. Maybe some anonymous tinkerer, after the Napoleonic war, got hold of some fire damaged parts and had a go at making something out of them? Girardoni wouldnt have used this as a pattern on which to base his 1780 model surely?
    Contrary to your view, I don't see anything wrong with this gun. I don't see any fire damage, but, with only the one picture it's just premature to make any firm comments. Note: I believe that side plate, hammer and tank are made of forged iron not steel which would account for their appearance.

    This gun is of the Austrian-Butt-Reservoir battery type (as described by Wolff.) The only real difference between this gun and the Girardoni is the addition of the Girardoni repeater magazine; otherwise, everything is the same. The history of the ABR battery type air gun, prior to the Girardoni, is essentially unknown. This is the only example of an airgun of the type that appears (at least to my eyes) to be earlier than 1780.

    In terms of production: Cortina d'Amprezzo's traditional commercial connections are to the south in northern Italy where gun production dates back to the 1500's (Beretta, etc.) It's entirely possible that the castings came from a commercial foundry in northern Italy and was then completed in Cortina d'Amprezzo.

    The hammer: Yes, very odd. One thing I think we can be pretty sure of is that the maker was not a professional gunmaker. It's also not impossible that this gun is so early that the flintlock mechanism had not yet appeared or had not yet come to dominate gun production. From what I understand, Tyrol was very late to the game with flintlock designs. It seems that they generally preferred the wheel lock long after the flintlock was popular elsewhere.

    The museum has promised a bunch more pictures, hopefully some time in January, so, with any luck we should get a better look at this bad boy.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by DT Fletcher View Post
    Contrary to your view, I don't see anything wrong with this gun. I don't see any fire damage, but, with only the one picture it's just premature to make any firm comments. Note: I believe that side plate, hammer and tank are made of forged iron not steel which would account for their appearance.

    This gun is of the Austrian-Butt-Reservoir battery type (as described by Wolff.) The only real difference between this gun and the Girardoni is the addition of the Girardoni repeater magazine; otherwise, everything is the same. The history of the ABR battery type air gun, prior to the Girardoni, is essentially unknown. This is the only example of an airgun of the type that appears (at least to my eyes) to be earlier than 1780.

    In terms of production: Cortina d'Amprezzo's traditional commercial connections are to the south in northern Italy where gun production dates back to the 1500's (Beretta, etc.) It's entirely possible that the castings came from a commercial foundry in northern Italy and was then completed in Cortina d'Amprezzo.

    The hammer: Yes, very odd. One thing I think we can be pretty sure of is that the maker was not a professional gunmaker. It's also not impossible that this gun is so early that the flintlock mechanism had not yet appeared or had not yet come to dominate gun production. From what I understand, Tyrol was very late to the game with flintlock designs. It seems that they generally preferred the wheel lock long after the flintlock was popular elsewhere.

    The museum has promised a bunch more pictures, hopefully some time in January, so, with any luck we should get a better look at this bad boy.


    Thank you for your reply. It will be interesting to see more pictures for a better look. The reason I mentioned fire damage was due to the lack of leather or similar covering on the air flask. Wheel locks were expensive to make but gave a good surefire ignition which, agreed, explains their continued popularity after the introduction of simpler mechanisms - if you had the money. Dog locks and flint locks reach back into the 1600's. Thats a bit too early

  7. #7
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    My guess is that the reservoir was originally covered; that was the standard practice, as far as I'm aware of. If this gun is as old as I think it is, it's no surprise that the original leather is no longer there.

    I'm hoping this spurs some interest in Tyrol. Up till now, it's been hard to do much because there really are so few early airguns left in the region (everything I've seen is post 1800) With the Cortina d'Amprezzo airgun, I can say, "Hey, Tyrol, there's a story here: an unwritten page of your history, sitting, waiting for you, in Slovenia."

    My dream would be to get this bad boy modeled and spec'd (a la Baker/Currie) so it can be reconstructed and tested. I bet it would prove to be a great gun. Without the magazine crap in the way, a better shooter than a Girardoni, for sure.

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