Spring gun revival (again.....)

[harvey_s]

I used to use a spring rifle when I was younger - but that's because mass-produced PCP's were in their infancy.
Later as my interests progressed to loose women and fast motorcycles any further interest took a back seat.
After that came the demands of a young family and my interests were confined to air pistols for many years.
As the family grew up, free time became available and my interest in rifles bubbled to the surface again.
I couldn't be arsed to kit myself out with all the divers kit for a PCP - so I purchased a PH Striker which ultimately disappointed with it's harsh nature and my mediocre performance .
After a while my interest in this gun was starting to wane when I was asked to dispose of some guns from an estate of which the last rifle to sell was a PCP & hand pump - namely an A-A S200 with FX 3 stage pump .
I decided to try it out before I sold it and what a revelation!... Smooth and almost effortlessly super accurate out to 50 yards and with no divers bottle malarkey.
The PH got sold and the A-A joined the household, much later followed by a Crosman 2250XL (superlight and very handy out to 25 yds) which I like and shoot a lot.
Just recently my eye was drawn by another Crosman - an MTR77 which had the dual selling point of looking exactly like a certain black rifle and having a gas ram (so no fannying about spring tuning, top hattery or Colonel Saunders special formula grease nonsense).
However, it has required a fairly steep learning curve to get it to group and even now its a demanding mistress and to become similarly proficienct to a PCP would require (a lot of) continued practice to keep the skill sharp I feel.

And that's the PCP's winning feature I think...it's very easy to live with despite the extra complexity of charging apparatus and nowhere near as demanding as the true springer which probably requires tuning from the off to optimise it and continual checking and maintenance to keep that consistency plus regular practice or competition.

However, to those bored by the clinical precision of PCP's and an interest in tinkering I see the attraction.

But these things tend to cyclical and in a few years the novelty will wear off for some and PCP's will become the next big thing (again)

[flyingfish]

Several years ago I had a rat problem at work (bear with me) I bought a Brum Xocet. Found I could hit a few things with it. Joined Broomhills and met PCPS. Suddenly I could hit anything. Moved on to powder burning.
Years passed and I came back to airguns through PCPs. Wasn't till I got back to a springer that I REALLY felt I was enjoying shooting again. It's got to be fun whatever you're shooting

[Herx77]

The resurgence of springers hmmm.
Since the 80's when springers were king and the HW77 ruled all, there has been a gradual decline in attendences at competitions and as the characters that pushed the advancement of FT and later HFT (setting the base rules) and structures of their sport either retired or moved on to other disciplines, a small cadre maintained an active interest in springers. More I think in FT than HFT.
Personally after years 'springing' at Markyate and FT competitions where a hot bed of talent grew and it was difficult not to be good shooting against the likes of T. Doe, Mark Commaccio, Dave Welhams(all the Welhams in fact)John Ford and Barry Mcgraw;it was difficult not to be caught up in the enthusium and competitive edge which was razor sharp. It was fun shooting at 2am in frost and in battery powered lighting.It was fun but I think it has faded a bit since. Russell is correct in that you will always have a recoiling element that cannot be removed no matter how much you subdue it but you can make it part of you when shooting and not an enemy in the firing cycle.
We put that much practice in we adapted and adjusted to recoil and being competitive amongst us that it turned out to be not too much a problem.We were shooting active guns not emasculated items and had to an extent come to terms with springers idiosyncracies.
Also there was throughout the country a comradarie existing where shooters knew each other and were allowed into a web site by invitation only.Rarely do I shoot springers these days due in part the stripping and relube when wet and don't do enough practice with the HW77.But it is good to score a high 50's against pcp's and highly 'tuned 'guns of the light side.
They are always memorable to shoot and interesting to look back on the scores,most which are higher that my pcp's.
HERX77

[TonyL]

The resurgence of springers hmmm.
Since the 80's when springers were king and the HW77 ruled all, there has been a gradual decline in attendences at competitions and as the characters that pushed the advancement of FT and later HFT (setting the base rules) and structures of their sport either retired or moved on to other disciplines, a small cadre maintained an active interest in springers. More I think in FT than HFT.
Personally after years 'springing' at Markyate and FT competitions where a hot bed of talent grew and it was difficult not to be good shooting against the likes of T. Doe, Mark Commaccio, Dave Welhams(all the Welhams in fact)John Ford and Barry Mcgraw;it was difficult not to be caught up in the enthusium and competitive edge which was razor sharp. It was fun shooting at 2am in frost and in battery powered lighting.It was fun but I think it has faded a bit since. Russell is correct in that you will always have a recoiling element that cannot be removed no matter how much you subdue it but you can make it part of you when shooting and not an enemy in the firing cycle.
We put that much practice in we adapted and adjusted to recoil and being competitive amongst us that it turned out to be not too much a problem.We were shooting active guns not emasculated items and had to an extent come to terms with springers idiosyncracies.
Also there was throughout the country a comradarie existing where shooters knew each other and were allowed into a web site by invitation only.Rarely do I shoot springers these days due in part the stripping and relube when wet and don't do enough practice with the HW77.But it is good to score a high 50's against pcp's and highly 'tuned 'guns of the light side.
They are always memorable to shoot and interesting to look back on the scores,most which are higher that my pcp's.
HERX77

Many good points made by so many posters.

The above I absolutely love.

[bozzer]

Aye Herx77's post is a pleasant read.

I really don't know what it is with me. There's some frustration lurking in there somewhere. Maybe, like Andy says, it's just remembering the fun me and my mates had as youngsters with a couple of old Webley break barrels. We would go down the pot bank tip and line up some cups and saucers and shoot at them. So compared to modern day target kill zones they were massive, but there was a skill to be learned with the reacting rifle if you wanted to keep hitting them. I suppose that possibly fuels my passion, when posting, that you don't need lots of tiny kills for it to be a shooting test and fun.

Maybe there's also something about me that says a newcomer, in any sport, SHOULD have to learn to do something well before they start getting good results. The PCP has meant that youngsters and newcomers and those that don't really want to put in many hours of range time CAN buy a 0.177 PCP and use the HFT rock steady prone stance and pretty much straight away start knocking down plenty of targets. I get that that probably gets more people shooting the sport and sticking at it, but as I'm always saying, it has, ironically, driven courses to a point where wind estimation is probably the biggest factor of getting very good scores and actual shooting skill is an also ran.

We can't be dinosaurs. We can't stand in the way of technical development. So the fact that PCPs mean that a newcomer can just buy one, shoot it for a short period of time and shoot it quite accurately ... that's a good thing right! Well, as I mentioned earlier when it's being used clinically to do a job like pest control then yes I think it's a very good thing. Is it great for shooting ... and Sunday morning comp shooting? Well if it means numbers are up then I suppose, yes, it has to be good.

Are these developments always a good thing?

As a youngster I was pretty good at table tennis. I played in the local leagues and I did well. Plain pimple bats were just about fading out and most were using more 'modern' bats that had some sponge and then pimples facing in rubber on top of the sponge. That gave a flat rubber surface that contacted the ball. The sponge greatly increased ball speed off the bat. You could then start to get different 'Tackiness' rubbers that could put great spin on the ball. The Chinese then started using very long pimple rubbers that had the smooth side fixed onto the sponge and the long pimples pointing outwards. This was called 'Grass' because the thin pimples were that long. The thin pimples absorbed the spin when receiving the ball and imparted all sorts of weird spin on the ball when releasing it. So the opponent was then receiving a ball that he couldn't control. To make things worse players would have a plain rubber on one side and the magic 'Grass' rubber on the other. They would then 'flip' the bats in their hands during rallies so the opponent had no idea which rubber had hit the ball. Rallies dropped from 20 or 30 shots to just a couple of shots. Players that had never really done all that well in the local leagues were buying these bats and starting to win lots of matches. The sport tried to negate this by ruling that bats had to be black on one side and red on the other so opponents could see which rubber had hit the ball. It basically destroyed the sport and eventually the very long pimple rubbers were banned. In more recent years the old 'Ping Pong' has made a resurgence as a sport. In Ping Pong you don't have your own bats. Two identical plain bats are provided. These are pretty much like the original bats that just have some thin pimple out rubber on the wooden blades. This means that no great amount of spin or deception can be put on the ball. So all the skill has been moved back to the players. Not only are the bats provided for the players but if one player feels the other player's bat is better than theirs then they can ask to swap bats. This makes for a very skilful game with long rallies and the player with the most skill will win.

My main love has always been cricket. The authorities have always insisted that bats are made from simple willow and there have always been restrictions on how 'wide' ( side to side ) the bats can be. Up until quite recently ( last 15 years or so ) a batsman had to time the ball and pretty much hit it in the middle to hit it with great power. If he risked trying to hit a six and there was a fielder on the boundary then if he didn't time it well enough he would be caught as the ball wouldn't travel far enough to go for six. Bats have gone crazy in recent years. They are now pressed very lightly and they have huge curves in the blades. They also have massive edges and even bigger 'middles'. As they are pressed lightly you can have a bat that is enormous but still picks up very light and can be swung with great hand speed. So now you have players ( instigated by Twenty20 ) trying to thrash most balls. Even if they get half a bat on it the ball will fly for six. The bats have meant that far less 'skill' is required to time the ball and make the boundary. It wasn't an option to try and make all cricket grounds bigger, so the authorities have just introduced new rules to limit the thickness of the bats to try and halt this direction.

So just a couple of examples. There will be many more and I'm sure people will mention motorsport. I used to watch the RAC rallies in the forests. I remember the huge Audi Quattro's exploding their way through the Welsh forests with the trees being lit up in the early morning darkness by the flames from the exhausts. I wasn't a rally driver but I had mates that used to rally and they always told me that the real competition is in the smaller classes where the skill of the driver is tested more than the technology of the cars.

I will never say that people buy prizes with top end kit. The best shooters will always be at the top of the lists. The guys who put the time in practising and working at their shooting. I just think that the ease of shooting a PCP, along with the rock steady HFT prone stance, has pushed courses to a point where actual shooting ability ( body position, hold, breathing, release, follow through ) has been pushed well down the list and wind judgement, plus a tad of ranging, is most of the job. That leaves the very small percentage of shooters who have to concentrate on shooting ability ( the springer folk ), shooting targets that are on their limits and so many will either walk away from the sport all together, or will migrate to the masses that shoot 0.177 PCP. They'd sooner be an average 0.177 PCP guy who averages around 50/60 rather than have scores that bounce all over the place with their springer and those scores often don't equate to how they've shot.

Would the Sunday morning tin chicken sports be a better test of shooting if kills were relaxed slightly, encouraging more people to give it a go with their springers, and stick with their springers, also giving a better chance for youngsters and newcomers, and more 'Shooting Skill' positions introduced for Elite shooters using 'Corpse Rifles' ( More kneelers and standers and maybe a less stable prone stance [ butt off the floor etc ])? ... I'm 100% certain they would. Would numbers drop though because most shooters don't want to have to put the time in to improve their shooting skills but want pretty much instant respectable scores? ... I'm sadly 100% certain of that also.

Just a last note ... We often hear the old guys ( myself included ) talking about springers, usually related to the fact that they were the air rifles available when we first used them as kids. However, probably the most successful HFT National Recoil shooter has been Kyle, who is a very young man. I spoke to Kyle and asked him why he shot a springer. He said that he just liked the way that it actually gave him a nudge in his shoulder and he had to work hard to shoot it accurately. Gary, who won this year's National HFT Recoil Class is also a relatively young guy. So thankfully it's not just us dinosaurs that like to try and master the springers.

[ChrisC]

First Chilly is no Spring chicken

Second is the setting of a HFT course. I don't count a National course the same as IMHO they should be as tricky as possible so that the top shooters can be challenged. It i'm setting a course out there will be 5 targets that everyone should get, 5 that (hopefully) no-one will get and a general mix in between.

[bozzer]

I was trying to be kind ... He's much bigger than me.

I totally agree that a National course should be tougher than a club course. So people can cut their teeth at club courses and maybe never move out of that level. Those that wish to can move up to Nationals and should notice that they are tougher.

I would word it slightly differently. I don't see the point in there being any targets that 'no one' can get. I also don't see there being any point in targets that are probably a lottery. So in some decent variable wind no one can 'guarantee' getting them. There will always be some luck but try and minimise it.

I would say that I would have on a 30 target HFT course ... A number of targets that are well within the capability of youngsters/newcomers and non 0.177 PCP OPEN shooters. So these will be targets that I expect the top shooters to get virtually 100% of the time and they will get them if they get that shot off better than 60% ( including position/hold/breathing/release/follow through/wind/range ). These will give the lower end shooters some points on the board and some encouragement.

There would also be a number of targets that I would hope really tested the top end 0.177 OPEN shooters. So they have to range these correctly ( within a couple of yards ) and get the wind right AND wait for the wind to be right on release ( so wait for the lull ), and do all the shooting stuff 90%+ correctly. So hard work targets even for the Elite of the 0.177 PCP OPEN group. However, these are still not beyond the capability of a springer shooter. If that springer shooter gets that shot off perfectly ( near as ) and has judged wind and range well then that target will go down. A 90%+ executed shot means that target is going down EVERY time. So it's a total test of shooting ability.

... and as you say ... a whole mix of targets in between those extremes around the course.

The point I've been making is that with modern top end courses like Nationals etc ... the rock steady HFT prone and the majority use of 0.177 PCPs means that courses have been pushed such that in even a moderate amount of wind some targets aren't Quality shot = Guaranteed kill ... and that's for the PCPs ... it's even worse for the springer shooters. This is the price we have paid for a rock steady stance and 'Dead' very accurate rifles. If this was indoor shooting then we could take the range out a tad further or reduce kills even more. However we are using rifles and a stance that is capable in the right hands of half inch accuracy at the max range of 45 yards, hence the reductions in kill sizes ... but outdoors in wind, that can mean no matter how well someone can judge wind the spread will take some pellets outside the kill ... and with rifles like springers, the variation in body/rifle positions will open groups any way. So Quality shot doesn't guarantee a kill. Sometimes with a springer a near perfect shot doesn't guarantee a kill. Once you start getting a reasonable amount of wind more and more targets fall into that category. Two people aim at exactly the same point and release the shot perfectly well, at the same lull in the wind ... one goes down ... the other doesn't.

I think the stance ( driven by the initial desire to make this a sport that is easy to get some points at an entry level ) and very accurate and easy to shoot 0.177 PCPs, have created this. Bigger kills and tougher positions, requiring more shooting skill, gets you closer to that Quality shot = Guaranteed kill. Newcomers and lower shooters ( their choice ) continue to use the easier rock steady stance until they reach a standard where they can move up, so that keeps their scores high at the beginning and keeps them coming back for more.

Maybe it's shooting springers for all those years and seeing courses evolve that made me feel that courses had gone that way, as I started to notice that my scores started bouncing all over the place on tougher courses, despite me feeling I was still shooting the springer quite well. No matter how much extra work I put in at the range I couldn't stop that happening. Maybe it's not so easy to notice when shooting 0.177 PCPs because if you shoot well on a tough course in not too unreasonable wind then you still score highly and about where you'd expect to be. It's only on quite windy days that you see the top 0.177 PCP OPEN shooters scores start falling apart. I'm convinced that starts happening to springers at a much lower ( and more average ) wind level on tough courses. When I look at HFT scores I don't just look at the top 0.177 OPEN PCP scores on that day. I look at the springer scores and the lower end scores too. You notice that on days where the top PCP shooters have slightly lower scores ( so I presume a tough course or a bit of variable wind at play ) the springers scores ( and blokes I know can shoot ) get crushed and there are a lot of very low scores at the bottom of PCP too. Those people can't be really enjoying turning up and spending 3 hours shooting 30 pellets and only knocking a few targets down.

T'is what it is and it's great. Just my ramblings from a springer point of view. Neil commented on StB that he was scoring consistently well with his springer so maybe I'd just reached my peak level as a springer shooter.

[Amac]

I think you have hit the nail on the head there Pete! The older I get the more I appreciate shooting a mechanically powered rifle for some reason. It is probably something to do with times long ago when a tin of pellets, some reactive targets and a springer kept me and my mates occupied for years.
Happy days indeed.
Andy