Spring gun revival (again.....)

[LESS THAN FORTUITOUS KENNETH]

I'm beginning to look at rifles much as I do watches. Quartz watches generally tell the time more accurately than mechanical watches, but I'd prefer a mechanical one over a quartz any day. They have a "soul".

My rifle collection at the moment is about 50/50, springers/boingers. There is no PC on my wanted list. There are a lot of boingers still on it. More so the older stuff. Must be my age.

[flyingfish]

I sent my BSA scorpion to be tuned. This left me with only a TX200 to shoot for a few weeks. I bet I did not put more than 2 tins through the scorpion before I sold it. Just found I had fallen in love with springers.

[32:1]

Ive recently bought a TX and cant put it down, it my return to springers as a bet with some mates about our hft scores. I have not shot a springer for years and in 3 weeks Ive not put it down, my trusty rapid has started to gather dust in the locker

I do now understand all you springer fans that say "everyone should own a springer".

I'm having a go with this tx, no I cant hit everthing as well as I do with my rapids, so why is it so much FUN


Chris

[flyingfish]

Ive recently bought a TX and cant put it down, it my return to springers as a bet with some mates about our hft scores. I have not shot a springer for years and in 3 weeks Ive not put it down, my trusty rapid has started to gather dust in the locker

I do now understand all you springer fans that say "everyone should own a springer".

I'm having a go with this tx, no I cant hit everthing as well as I do with my rapids, so why is it so much FUN


Chris

That's the fact behind it all, springers are fun

[bozzer]

My Regal has gone ... frankly since major tuning my 34 no difference in accuracy.

I'm convinced the resurgence is owing to the new tuning technology which completely transforms a springer ... ive out shot a few PCPs without all the paraphernalia ... Springers are getting better post manufacture and our knowledge constantly growing ....sleeveless pistons and exotic materials etc..

I shoot a lot of HFT now and I'm trying to get more people shooting springers. As part of this I'm going to be reviewing a whole load of springers next year. Testing loads of things including accuracy at 45 yards ... I want to show that springers, even cheaper ones can be accurate if you learn them

Great ...start with a Diana 34 ...see if you can match my 17 mm effort.....that's 50 yds

Some folk could come on here and read all these threads about springers and boingers and the biblical resurgence and actually believe that magical things are happening out there, on the competition front, with people shooting springers.

If this were so then I'd expect to check out the UKAHFT National Series results and see loads more people shooting the required 6 out of 9 shoots to qualify with a springer, and the springer scores be increasing/improving, and the gap getting closer between the top PCP shooters and the top springer shooters of the latest year. Surely that must be the case if all this magical modern day tuning and springer resurgence was as virulent as the springer threads all over the internet suggest?

Wrong.

In the HFT Nationals there have been only 3 or 4 that have shot the required 6 shoots to qualify for several years, compared to literally dozens shooting 0.177 PCP. The springer scores have actually deteriorated and the gap between the top PCP shooters and springer shooters widened.

There is no doubt that shooting a springer is more difficult and more of a challenge than shooting a PCP. So it is more satisfying, from a shooting point of view, when you knock over a difficult target. The greatest majority of shooters want results ... not the satisfaction of hitting targets with something that is far more difficult to shoot accurately in a variety of holds/positions.

It's really quite pointless testing out Springers Vs PCPs on a range where the shooter can maintain a consistent position and hold. Many many decent springer shooters will be able to shoot fantastic groups up to 45 yards and beyond with their springers. If Clarky can consistently put in 17mm groups at 50 yards with a Diana 34 then he can have my house keys. Group capability is average group ... not best. The test for the Springer Vs PCP, especially re HFT comp shooting, is being able to consistently achieve accuracy whilst changing the rifle angles, body positions, holds. This is where the PCP will win easily. So when you do those 45 yards tests ... do them at various angles, body positions, holds etc. That's when you'll see how accurate a springer can be shot compared to a PCP.

I would imagine that for those that are at the very peak of the 0.177 PCP competition, there is the thrill of trying to stay at that level and trying to squeeze every point out of a course to try and win that comp or that series. That will only concern a minimum amount of shooters. That will leave a majority of PCP shooters who are of a lower level, that may look for something extra in their Sunday morning shooting rather than another 50/60 scorecard, where they probably found a lot of targets ( on a stillish day ) didn't provide them with a lot of excitement. So they turn to a springer and that now means that far more targets on the course provide more of a challenge, and a thrill when they go down. However ... it's a small number of shooters. Tench turned to 0.22 PCP for a while. Gary has turned to springer. Neil Wakelin has shot very well with a springer over the winter months but I'm sure he will shoot 0.177 PCP in the Summers.

They are interesting things to shoot. You have to learn to shoot them properly to shoot them well. It is rewarding when you are shooting them well. However, they are Penny Farthings in the world of modern day racing bikes. You can put fancy saddles on them and put some special grease on the chain, but they will still be something that has been superseded regarding ease of use and performance.

Buy them, shoot them, tune them, customise them and enjoy them ... but it's Cuckoo's nest time to keep trying to say that they are as accurate as a PCP ( all things considered ).

If you want outlandish statements ... check this out ...

Modern day 0.177 sub 12FP PCPs have revolutionised airgun shooting. They've meant that pest control is much easier for the average shooter who actually has concerns re quarry welfare and quick dispatch etc. They have also meant that loads of people can just buy one and within a very short period of time can be shooting them accurately. I do reckon they have a lot to answer for in Sunday morning air rifle competition shooting. Shoot a springer at a range and it's fun. There is difficulty shooting at quite close targets. Even a 40mm kill at 35 yards needs some work. A 15mm kill at 25 yards needs a lot of work. Start shooting them kneeling and standing and it's really fun. Compare that to shooting a 0.177 PCP. I'm always talking here about decent rifles with matched pellets that shoot accurately so the work is down to the shooter. Shooting a 0.177 PCP, in a stable position, at the range at targets up to 45 yards can get boring pretty quickly. So to get that 'buzz' out of a PCP you have to start pushing the targets out beyond 45 yards ... maybe even beyond 50 yards. That is what happened in FT. If you want to stay close range ... so max 45 yards ... as in HFT ... then to test the 0.177 PCP, from a stable position, then you have to decrease those kill sizes ... again what has happened in HFT. The problem is that with a 12FP air rifle, any wind is having a dramatic affect on those pellets, especially at some distance. So by extending range, or dramatically reducing kill sizes, you are starting to turn the balance between shooting skill and ability ( hold, release, follow through ) and wind judgement far more towards wind judgement. At a certain level of wind, then it becomes guessing time. So modern day courses, driven by the consistent accuracy of PCPs, start pushing a 'Challenge', for springer shooters, towards 'Unachievable' for some targets. I've done all this before.

I reckon a situation where people were having to shoot courses with a rifle that they had to 'learn' to shoot accurately, with relaxed kill sizes, would be a far better test of airgunning skill. The Paul James British Recoiling Championships at Anston is such a comp and you will find a lot of people saying that that is the best shoot of the year ( ... and a lot of them will also shoot PCP in other comps ). Maybe a one mile race on Penny Farthings is a better competition than a 25 mile race on modern road bikes? A Penny Farthing Vs modern road bike over 25 miles ... Good luck with that.

[32:1]

I'm one who has bought a springer for hft, now Im not expecting to beat all the pcp scores, just my buddies this really is just to see how many I can hit. I recently went to my local hft club after a while away and noticed the amount of mechano type pcps there ! I thought hft was a hunting scenario, obviously not and people are chasing their dream with their chequebooks, something that happens so much in motorcycle racing, all trying to be the fastest, the most fun Id say is taking part in the stock or one make classes. Remember Some times people enter events just for the fun !

Chris

[robs5230]

I'm one who has bought a springer for hft, now Im not expecting to beat all the pcp scores, just my buddies this really is just to see how many I can hit. I recently went to my local hft club after a while away and noticed the amount of mechano type pcps there ! I thought hft was a hunting scenario, obviously not and people are chasing their dream with their chequebooks, something that happens so much in motorcycle racing, all trying to be the fastest, the most fun Id say is taking part in the stock or one make classes. Remember Some times people enter events just for the fun !

Chris

I think you've hit the nail on the head there Chris. Enjoyment is the key.
I never have (and never will) take any part in competition shooting of any kind as I have no interest in doing so.
However for hunting trips, I regularly pick up a springer.
I don't need a massive scope to pick out which hair on a rabbit's head I'm aiming at, yet keep my freezer well stocked up.
All my hunting shots are taken from standing positions as my permissions dictate that.
If I didn't think I could take the shot cleanly then I wouldn't take the shot. That also applies when I take the PCP's out too. I don't take a springer hunting because I want a challenge. I do so as my springers are every bit as capable of dispatching live quarry as my PCP's. Maybe 35 years of using springers has made me very comfortable shooting them though.
Enjoy your new TX mate.

[bozzer]

Robs5230

It would be interesting to know what range you are taking all your standing shots at when hunting.

I've seen lots of hunters turn up at HFT comps. They usually claim that they take kneeling and standing shots at a certain range. Then when they go around the course they miss kneelers and standers at ranges that are well within their claimed hunting ranges, and the kills on kneeler and stander targets are quite large.

I'm pretty useful with a springer but my range that I could claim I could hit a certain kill size a very high percentage of the time would be very much closer than most people would claim.

[bozzer]

Remember Some times people enter events just for the fun !

Chris

Aye ... I've heard that a few hundred times over the years. Usually ... the lower the scores ... the more they were just shooting it for fun. Weird though how those same 'Fun' shooters turn up for the next one with a new gun or scope.

Robs

Fair comments matey. I've no concerns over a 4x or 6x fixed mag with no PA. If the shooter has the PA on the scope set at the right range and sticks to ranges between A and B then that's as good a way as any ... particularly with standers where high mag shows loads of wobble.

[ChrisC]

Aye ... I've heard that a few hundred times over the years. Usually ... the lower the scores ... the more they were just shooting it for fun. Weird though how those same 'Fun' shooters turn up for the next one with a new gun or scope.

Robs

Fair comments matey. I've no concerns over a 4x or 6x fixed mag with no PA. If the shooter has the PA on the scope set at the right range and sticks to ranges between A and B then that's as good a way as any ... particularly with standers where high mag shows loads of wobble.

We can actually give a perfect example of what Bozzer is talking about there.

How many have heard of Vermin Hunters TV?....long distance springer hunting shots?

Now have a look at the scores that Si Pittaway and Davy Thomas get at HFT comps. nuff said.

Don't get me wrong, one of the best 'natural' shooters i know is an out and out Hunter.

Maybe we should challenge clarky to prove his shooting skills?

[keithy]

I agree most pcps are soul less especially the electronic ones. I take my HW 80 .22 out regularly and try and hit the 60yd spinners with it. I get a warm glow of satisfaction when I hit them, and love the thump in the shoulder from my 80.

[Antoni]

Vey long time ago when shooting full bore pistol at a club, I heard rumours that one fella was taking his mum's blood pressure tablets to calm him down for the local comps.

That always comes to mind now as I work the action of the HW80K for the next shot at the range. As in anything practice improves performance. But practice with a springer needs physical effort. Effort raises heart rate. High heart rate mitigates against relaxation and therefore the necessary calm and light control of the rifle.

PCPs don't have that disadvantage; you could just concentrate on shot after shot.

All the same I don't want one.

[bozzer]

Antoni

Nice post. I love the last sentence after you've just explained why PCP's have even more advantages ( You still don't want one ... Good man ).

I'll digress ... but this is what happens on internet sites. Also ... for a moment ... I'll be a little more serious than my posts normally are but I do think it's a point worth making ( well making again as it's been covered before ).

Antoni's point is valid that the more physical effort required, then the higher the heart rate, and the higher the heart rate the less conducive that is to accuracy. To be honest, most guys that one sees out on a Sunday morning shooting at air rifle comps/clubs, aren't the finest examples of cardiac fitness. So their heart rates are probably elevated from carrying a bag or two around a course and getting up and down from sitting or prone stances. However, Antoni's point is still valid re extra effort to shoot a springer.

I suffer from General/Anxiety and Depression. It's plagued me all my life. Constantly in a sensitised state with my mind switching on the Fight or Flight response at the simplest trigger. So my heart rate is usually higher than it needs to be.

Just spending quiet time, away from the hustle and bustle, down a wood with my air rifle and a dog, is better therapy than any of the pills I've taken.

I find shooting the springer for a couple of hours really helps. If my heart rate is elevated and my muscles tense, then my accuracy suffers. The springer is a great indicator as to how tense I am. So I have to concentrate on letting go. Letting go of any unwanted thoughts and letting go, as best I can, of any muscle tension. Then my body and my heart rate and my breathing relax ... and then I start to get better accuracy with the springer. So shooting the springer, out in the countryside, is like a great meditation session for me.

Sorry ... got a bit Zen.

[Hsing-ee]

Just spending quiet time, away from the hustle and bustle, down a wood with my air rifle and a dog, is better therapy than any of the pills I've taken.

I find shooting the springer for a couple of hours really helps. If my heart rate is elevated and my muscles tense, then my accuracy suffers. The springer is a great indicator as to how tense I am. So I have to concentrate on letting go. Letting go of any unwanted thoughts and letting go, as best I can, of any muscle tension. Then my body and my heart rate and my breathing relax ... and then I start to get better accuracy with the springer. So shooting the springer, out in the countryside, is like a great meditation session for me.

Sorry ... got a bit Zen.

Interesting point, concentration is about forgetting everything else, including anything that a person might be anxious about. Incidentally, Gautama Buddha, the founder of Buddhism and therefore of Zen, was reportedly an excellent shot with the bow in his life before he took up religion. There are several references to archery in his teaching, mostly to do with maintaining a peaceful mind. If he was around now, I am sure he'd be doing 10m match.