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Thread: Spring gun revival (again.....)

  1. #46
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    Barryg is offline Registered ̶D̶i̶a̶n̶a̶ User
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    Quote Originally Posted by bighit View Post
    Squirrels in a tree, crows and pigeons in trees and shooting them with a rim fire or centerfire

    not all shooting permissions are suitable for rim fire or centerfire .so that's where a FAC airgun comes in handy especially if the user wants to use a .25 airgun . and some permissions are very open so getting closer to the quarry may not be easy so a little more range with an FAC airgun is handy
    What I am saying is why bother with air over 28/30 ft/lb when you can have .22 cap .22 short and ,22 long and
    under 28ft/lb if you like bongers they are self contained unlike puffers and to me that is the big advantage of bongers

    You dont hear much about .22 cap I think they are about 20ish ft/lb.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
    We can actually give a perfect example of what Bozzer is talking about there.

    How many have heard of Vermin Hunters TV?....long distance springer hunting shots?

    Now have a look at the scores that Si Pittaway and Davy Thomas get at HFT comps. nuff said.

    Don't get me wrong, one of the best 'natural' shooters i know is an out and out Hunter.

    Maybe we should challenge clarky to prove his shooting skills?
    There's a big difference between target shooting and hunting. All my shots when hunting are pretty much instinctive. I may take 6 shots in a 2 or 3 hour session.
    Not sure how I'd fare taking 40 shots over an hour at knockdown targets I'm not familiar with.
    I'm familiar with shape and size of my quarry but an unknown size of steel plate with an unknown size of kill area at a guestimated range would certainly make it hard for me to judge distance and place a shot accurately.
    I'm aware shooters do get familiar with courses so get to know the target size and distance.
    Last I heard, digital rangefinders weren't allowed in competetive shooting but are invaluable when hunting
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  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barryg View Post
    What I am saying is why bother with air over 28/30 ft/lb when you can have .22 cap .22 short and ,22 long and
    under 28ft/lb if you like bongers they are self contained unlike puffers and to me that is the big advantage of bongers

    You dont hear much about .22 cap I think they are about 20ish ft/lb.

    cb longs http://www.cci-ammunition.com/produc...=1&loadNo=0038 32ftlbs 29grain. so not far off a .25 in FAC at 30 ftlbs.

    https://www.shootingandscuba.co.uk/s...5mm-tin-of-350 25grain.
    Last edited by bighit; 19-12-2017 at 03:00 PM.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by robs5230 View Post
    There's a big difference between target shooting and hunting. All my shots when hunting are pretty much instinctive. I may take 6 shots in a 2 or 3 hour session.
    Not sure how I'd fare taking 40 shots over an hour at knockdown targets I'm not familiar with.
    I'm familiar with shape and size of my quarry but an unknown size of steel plate with an unknown size of kill area at a guestimated range would certainly make it hard for me to judge distance and place a shot accurately.
    I'm aware shooters do get familiar with courses so get to know the target size and distance.
    Last I heard, digital rangefinders weren't allowed in competetive shooting but are invaluable when hunting
    i've done a lot of hunting in the past but it's slowed down a bit now i'm not on the farm. I agree that quite a few shots are 'instinct' as you'll be lucky to get your crosshairs onto a squirrel for more than a couple of seconds so 'pre-shot' mental calculations (wind/range/cover) have to be done whilst making sure the bugger doesn't do the inevitable vanishing trick. I've found that HFT shooting has honed my 'mk1 eyeball' rangefinding a treat and because of the need for super accuracy, made me keep my hunting kit as accurate as my comp kit. Personally, i started with shotties at 8 and went onto HMR and rimmie before joining the Navy and being in the stations 25m prone team. Came out and had a decade out of shooting before getting bitten by the air rifle bug but have kept my hand in with Shotties and .223/.270. The vast majority of my shooting has beeen FT and HFT but i still have a dabble with other bits n bobs. I've owned loads of boingers over the years but admit that i can't shoot them for toffee.....well that's not strictly true.....i just didn't devote enough time to learn each rifle, got frustrated and went back to the PCP. I suppose it's because i was shooting so many comps that i thought i should be shooting a comp rig as much as possible.

    IIRC the maddest thing i bought was a Longbow venom but still couldn't master springers...even with a 1k boinger.
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  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
    i've done a lot of hunting in the past but it's slowed down a bit now i'm not on the farm. I agree that quite a few shots are 'instinct' as you'll be lucky to get your crosshairs onto a squirrel for more than a couple of seconds so 'pre-shot' mental calculations (wind/range/cover) have to be done whilst making sure the bugger doesn't do the inevitable vanishing trick. I've found that HFT shooting has honed my 'mk1 eyeball' rangefinding a treat and because of the need for super accuracy, made me keep my hunting kit as accurate as my comp kit. Personally, i started with shotties at 8 and went onto HMR and rimmie before joining the Navy and being in the stations 25m prone team. Came out and had a decade out of shooting before getting bitten by the air rifle bug but have kept my hand in with Shotties and .223/.270. The vast majority of my shooting has beeen FT and HFT but i still have a dabble with other bits n bobs. I've owned loads of boingers over the years but admit that i can't shoot them for toffee.....well that's not strictly true.....i just didn't devote enough time to learn each rifle, got frustrated and went back to the PCP. I suppose it's because i was shooting so many comps that i thought i should be shooting a comp rig as much as possible.

    IIRC the maddest thing i bought was a Longbow venom but still couldn't master springers...even with a 1k boinger.
    I think part of it (and a big part at that) is knowing your kit inside out (learning the rifle as you say). I rarely if ever have more than one hunting springer. All my rifles, pcp and springer have the same scope so I'm familiar with bracketing my quarry. I also tune my springers to my liking. I
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  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooper_dan View Post
    Bozzer, I'll write my comment again as you tactically removed the middle line

    I shoot a lot of HFT now and I'm trying to get more people shooting springers. As part of this I'm going to be reviewing a whole load of springers next year. Testing loads of things including accuracy at 45 yards. Starting off with budget guns, and hopefully moving up in price/quality as funds or lending allows.
    I want to show that springers, even cheaper ones can be accurate if you learn them
    Dan

    I'm not that bright to be tactically removing anything.

    The point I was making is that even if using expensive springers that have been highly tuned, it's no where near as easy, especially for newcomers, to shoot them as accurately as a PCP, and especially when shooting them at various angles and various positions. Hence the comments about testing them at various angles/positions. Loads of talk on the internet about springer resurgence and tuning. There are people who give springers a go at club level on HFT courses, but at National level only a few shoot enough rounds to qualify, and even these dedicated souls don't score that brilliantly on tough courses.

    I'm not anti springer ... or anti springer for HFT. I'm quite the opposite. If you've read some of my posts on this topic the point I am constantly making, is that the stable HFT prone stance and the accuracy of 0.177 PCP ( in a variety of angles/positions ) has pushed courses to a point where newcomers turning up with a basic springer will struggle and may not stick at it. Ironically, HFT was designed to give people with basic kit a chance to turn up and do quite well. People, like you mentioned, that have a basic springer and scope, and who don't want to spend several hundred quid on a PCP, scope, bottle, may give it a go with their springers, but may walk away because they score badly on courses that have evolved to test the best shooters with top end PCPs. We'll get people saying that you can win HFT comps with a AA S400 and 80 quid scope ... and you can. Newcomers trying HFT for the first time with a cheap springer on a tough course in some wind ... they will need big hearts to keep turning up and knocking down a low percentage of targets.

    If someone said to me that they have a springer and a basic 3-9x40 scope and that they weren't going to buy any more kit but wanted to give HFT a go and asked me if I thought they should ... I'd beg them to go and give it a go, as they will enjoy the banter and atmosphere, but would warn them that it would be tough with a springer and they may not knock a lot down. I'd drag them there and hope they get the bug and then let them decide if they wished to continue shooting springer, or move to 0.177 PCP.

    If someone said to me that they wanted to give HFT a go and weren't that bothered about what type of gun they used, but just wanted to knock down as many targets as soon as possible, and they were thinking of either buying a top end springer, spending money having it tuned, popping it in a heavy custom stock, as they'd heard that these are self contained and can be shot as accurately as a PCP, or spending similar money on a S400 and bottle and asked me what I would suggest ... then that's a dead easy answer.

  7. #52
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    I left shooting in the mid 90s with PCPs taking over everything on a range. Although the springer was still king in the field. I've shot PCPs and I even briefly worked for Daystate (this was when they were still being run by Don Lowndes and Mike Seddon and that other chap whose name evades me) and they were releasing their Huntsman with a straight trigger blade and the QC at the time I think. Lovely looking rifles too with the brass cylinders.

    I readily admit I'm not a PCPs fan. All I read and hear about are people complaining about losing air, sweet spots, filling cylinders and other niggles. I'm not saying springers are immune but this does sound like a lot of on-going hassle. I've tried shooting them and after 20 shots I hand it back - bored. To some the benefits must out weigh the niggles. And fair play to you.

    However, what I think the PCP does better than a springer is allow someone who hasnt shot before the experience of hitting targets consistently - and at long range. This can only be an encouragement to get involved. A PCP is also an excellent way of spotting problems with technique without worrying about hold sensitivity - eg. pulling your shot or for standing targets. At the elder end of the age scale I know of a few older shooters who have had to give up using springers because of the effort so now use PCPs. Again this is brilliant.

    I can see the benefits but I'll always be a springer shooter until the moment I can't cock my own gun (fnar). I understand them and I like it that I have to work each shot. I likethe idea of just popping out for a plink with a rifle and a tin of pellets, which I could feasibly shoot all 500 in the tin. If I got into some serious FT/HFT shooting maybe my mindset would change and I'd be saving up for a Ripley or perhaps looking for a JB1.

    On the rare occasions I do pit myself against competitors I get a buzz from using my boingers and trying to match the PCP-ers.

    Alls fair in love and plinking.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by robs5230 View Post
    There's a big difference between target shooting and hunting. All my shots when hunting are pretty much instinctive. I may take 6 shots in a 2 or 3 hour session.
    Not sure how I'd fare taking 40 shots over an hour at knockdown targets I'm not familiar with.
    I'm familiar with shape and size of my quarry but an unknown size of steel plate with an unknown size of kill area at a guestimated range would certainly make it hard for me to judge distance and place a shot accurately.
    I'm aware shooters do get familiar with courses so get to know the target size and distance.
    Last I heard, digital rangefinders weren't allowed in competitive shooting but are invaluable when hunting
    laser range finders mostly have a +/- 1 metre accuracy so it would not be to their advantage any way

    LEICA GEOVID "EDITION 2017" (8 x 42 HD-B EDITION 2200)

    and costs http://www.swillingtonshootingsuppli...-Edition-2017/

    was £2550 now £1825 . so even the expensive ones are not totally accurate

    Measuring accuracy ± 1 yd / m to 547 yds / 500 m
    ± 2 yds / m to 1,094 yds / 1,000 m
    ± 0,5 % beyond 1,094 yds / 1,000 m

  9. #54
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    Bozzer,

    Points well made. I think my problem is I have trouble putting myself in other people's shoes.
    I have a friend who started HFT the same time as me. He started with a PCP and over about 4 months he upgraded two more times. Final gun was a very expensive Daystate. That didn't last long though. He'd bought the best kit but didn't practice range finding or technique so didn't get amazing scores and got bored very quickly. Doesn't shoot anymore.

    I've been of the opinion that starting with a springer is a good idea because it exaggerates poor technique so you can learn from it. Then upgrade to a PCP when you want to start upping your scores. But I can definitely see why people would want to go straight to PCP

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by bighit View Post
    laser range finders mostly have a +/- 1 metre accuracy so it would not be to their advantage any way

    LEICA GEOVID "EDITION 2017" (8 x 42 HD-B EDITION 2200)

    and costs http://www.swillingtonshootingsuppli...-Edition-2017/

    was £2550 now £1825 . so even the expensive ones are not totally accurate

    Measuring accuracy ± 1 yd / m to 547 yds / 500 m
    ± 2 yds / m to 1,094 yds / 1,000 m
    ± 0,5 % beyond 1,094 yds / 1,000 m
    I know.
    What I was getting at was I'd have no chance really on an FT course as I have no idea of the plate sizes. However I do know what a rabbit looks like. And I have the ability to range find If i need in the field.
    Regular FT shooters will have a big advantage over me in the FT course and I reckon some FT shooters may likewise struggle in the field. I took a mate out recently who's just got into ft and bought himself a r10mk2. He's very good considering he's not been shooting long.
    He took a shot at a rabbit at 20 yards when out with me and had a clean miss. He's not asked to go since.
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  11. #56
    Murphy is offline Cooee! Chase me you naughty boys!
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    Quote Originally Posted by robs5230 View Post
    He took a shot at a rabbit at 20 yards when out with me and had a clean miss. He's not asked to go since.
    Thats called Buck fever.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    Thats called Buck fever.
    I get the same shooting at inanimate steel plates and paper
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  13. #58
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    harvey_s is offline Lost love child of David Niven and Victoria Beckham
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    I used to use a spring rifle when I was younger - but that's because mass-produced PCP's were in their infancy.
    Later as my interests progressed to loose women and fast motorcycles any further interest took a back seat.
    After that came the demands of a young family and my interests were confined to air pistols for many years.
    As the family grew up, free time became available and my interest in rifles bubbled to the surface again.
    I couldn't be arsed to kit myself out with all the divers kit for a PCP - so I purchased a PH Striker which ultimately disappointed with it's harsh nature and my mediocre performance .
    After a while my interest in this gun was starting to wane when I was asked to dispose of some guns from an estate of which the last rifle to sell was a PCP & hand pump - namely an A-A S200 with FX 3 stage pump .
    I decided to try it out before I sold it and what a revelation!... Smooth and almost effortlessly super accurate out to 50 yards and with no divers bottle malarkey.
    The PH got sold and the A-A joined the household, much later followed by a Crosman 2250XL (superlight and very handy out to 25 yds) which I like and shoot a lot.
    Just recently my eye was drawn by another Crosman - an MTR77 which had the dual selling point of looking exactly like a certain black rifle and having a gas ram (so no fannying about spring tuning, top hattery or Colonel Saunders special formula grease nonsense).
    However, it has required a fairly steep learning curve to get it to group and even now its a demanding mistress and to become similarly proficienct to a PCP would require (a lot of) continued practice to keep the skill sharp I feel.

    And that's the PCP's winning feature I think...it's very easy to live with despite the extra complexity of charging apparatus and nowhere near as demanding as the true springer which probably requires tuning from the off to optimise it and continual checking and maintenance to keep that consistency plus regular practice or competition.

    However, to those bored by the clinical precision of PCP's and an interest in tinkering I see the attraction.

    But these things tend to cyclical and in a few years the novelty will wear off for some and PCP's will become the next big thing (again)

  14. #59
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    flyingfish is offline I may only have 5 but I have the best 5
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    Several years ago I had a rat problem at work (bear with me) I bought a Brum Xocet. Found I could hit a few things with it. Joined Broomhills and met PCPS. Suddenly I could hit anything. Moved on to powder burning.
    Years passed and I came back to airguns through PCPs. Wasn't till I got back to a springer that I REALLY felt I was enjoying shooting again. It's got to be fun whatever you're shooting
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  15. #60
    Herx77 is offline "Instruments of the light"
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    The resurgence of springers hmmm.
    Since the 80's when springers were king and the HW77 ruled all, there has been a gradual decline in attendences at competitions and as the characters that pushed the advancement of FT and later HFT (setting the base rules) and structures of their sport either retired or moved on to other disciplines, a small cadre maintained an active interest in springers. More I think in FT than HFT.
    Personally after years 'springing' at Markyate and FT competitions where a hot bed of talent grew and it was difficult not to be good shooting against the likes of T. Doe, Mark Commaccio, Dave Welhams(all the Welhams in fact)John Ford and Barry Mcgraw;it was difficult not to be caught up in the enthusium and competitive edge which was razor sharp. It was fun shooting at 2am in frost and in battery powered lighting.It was fun but I think it has faded a bit since. Russell is correct in that you will always have a recoiling element that cannot be removed no matter how much you subdue it but you can make it part of you when shooting and not an enemy in the firing cycle.
    We put that much practice in we adapted and adjusted to recoil and being competitive amongst us that it turned out to be not too much a problem.We were shooting active guns not emasculated items and had to an extent come to terms with springers idiosyncracies.
    Also there was throughout the country a comradarie existing where shooters knew each other and were allowed into a web site by invitation only.Rarely do I shoot springers these days due in part the stripping and relube when wet and don't do enough practice with the HW77.But it is good to score a high 50's against pcp's and highly 'tuned 'guns of the light side.
    They are always memorable to shoot and interesting to look back on the scores,most which are higher that my pcp's.
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