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Thread: Spring gun revival (again.....)

  1. #76
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    Well done Neil. Problem now is that you will need to dump the new Steyr until you further increase your recoiling score!

    I haven't shot a PCP in months now and haven't missed them at all. It was interesting to talk to some novice PCP shots at a recent zeroing session at a local indoor bench rested range.
    A couple of shooters had never shot a springer and literally jumped themselves following shot release. They commented that they would rather just use their dead guns to monotone effect and were happy to continue doing that all day. The main thing is I suppose that they were shooting, but learning they were not.

    Maybe I expect too much of new shooters who can just pick up a PCP and imagine themselves as champion shots in no time at all? If they are happy to do that and remain shooters why the hell not. I think that I am actually harking back to a time when we all had to possess some actual shooting skills in order to improve. That does not mean we have to subject youngsters and newcomers to learning how to shoot a proper recoiling gun. Yes they would be better shooters if they did learn the skills, but why should and why would they?

    The bottom line is that I am now an old dodderer who thinks that everything should be done the way it was when I was young myself. It is a shame that many youngsters will not have the opportunity to wander down on the local beach armed with an air rifle just shooting at cans and washed up rubbish like we did.

    Times have changed, maybe I should just come to terms with this and just let the younger shooters do things their own way and shoot guns that dont respond to how they are shot.

    Andy
    Member, the Feinwerkbau Sport appreciation Society (over 50's chapter)
    http://www.rivington-riflemen.eu/ Andy, from the North !

  2. #77
    Herx77 is offline "Instruments of the light"
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    Christmas dinner done and onto the second glass of Glen Morangie, the warmth spreads through you and a posting seems to be the right think to do.....Topping up and ready to go.
    Happy christmas to shooters of the 80's ( a strange band in a strange land) but creating a firm evironment which we enjoy today. Considering either "Dark side" ( nasty pcp's ), or instruments of the light "springers", both give a certain satisfaction but for some reason springers give more.
    Considering why, and a third (glass or fourth), it may be that if you shoot pcp's for a time you seem to reach a plateau, and some go beyond it and become something special, high consistant scores, and an understanding of wind that indicates a selling of ones soul...almost.Others don't and never go beyond that level.
    However shooting a springer,"it being a hard taskmaster", skills, if you can stay the course,will become ingrained slower than a pcp but stay longer and a better sense of achievement to break through the plateau and beyond, which is almost unnoticeable.
    Certainly a strong sense of determination seems to go hand in hand with those who spread the word of the spring.
    Skills gained with springers translate into pcp shooting but rarely the other way;mistakes in hold etc you can get away with pcp's but springers have to be nearly perfect each time. The margin for error is very small,........all those that affect a pcp, and then throw recoil and hold into the equation. Wonderfall things springers and their shooters.
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  3. #78
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    Many times I have heard people say, "You must start with a springer to learn proper technique. If you start with a PCP, you'll never be able to shoot a springer"

    Well, I always have and still do disagree. I learnt with a PCP, with this dead to shoot gun I learnt about reading the wind (without the worry of wondering if I'd gripped the rifle incorectly), I learnt about trajectory and shot placement and my scores increased quickly. This made me want to keep shooting.

    After 8 years of PCP I went to spring and I've done well. I've kept up with people like Nige Wood, Paul Burt and Rex. This is because I learnt my trade with a PCP and then all I had to do was learn how to hold a springer.

    The analogy I like to use is, when you teach someone to drive, don't do it in a Lamborghini. Give them a Mini.
    Last edited by scutter; 26-12-2017 at 10:52 AM.
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  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by scutter View Post
    Many times I have heard people say, "You must start with a springer to learn proper technique. If you start with a PCP, you'll never be able to shoot a springer"

    Well, I always have and still do disagree. I learnt with a PCP, with this dead to shoot gun I learnt about reading the wind (without the worry of wondering if I'd gripped the rifle incorectly), I learnt about trajectory and shot placement and my scores increased quickly. This made me want to keep shooting.

    After 8 years of PCP I went to spring and I've done well. I've kept up with people like Nige Wood, Paul Burt and Rex. This is because I learnt my trade with a PCP and then all I had to do was learn how to hold a springer.

    The analogy I like to use is, when you teach someone to drive, don't do it in a Lamborghini. Give them a Mini.
    Agree with this. I started with a springer, then started shooting a mix of springer, RF and CF, and have mixed up everything from Gats to GPMGs since.

    The six elements of shooting are position, hold, sight picture, sight alignment, trigger control, and follow-through.

    Comparing the springer to anything else, the hold is different, and the follow-through more important. The rest is the same. But even something as "dead" as a PCP needs a consistent approach to shoot at its best.

    Where air rifles are concerned, I am a recreational target shooter who likes a challenge, so I prefer springers, but denigrating PCPs feels wrong. They are still guns, not laser death rays, and still need good technique, even if they are more forgiving than boingers.

  5. #80
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    You have made some very valid points chaps!

    Gary's comment about him learning with a PCP is probably the norm now, with probably most "serious" shooters who get fully drawn into the sport these days buying an excellent gun such as the AA 400 with which to learn crucial skills such as reading the wind if shooting outside of course.

    As I said in the previous post, who am I to recommend what anybody should start shooting with anyway? The main objective should be to get new shooters interested. If they choose to use a PCP then great.

    Maybe there are some shooters who just enjoy the amazing accuracy available from even a relatively cheap PCP and are happy to proceed with this approach. I cant help but think that they are missing out on a challenging aspect of our sport though. The problem appears to be that shooting springers is not something that comes as swiftly as the ability to hit the target with a recoil-less gun.

    I just hope that shooters new to airgunning at least consider learning to shoot a spring powered gun as they are missing out otherwise in my opinion.The challenge of shooting a springer to a high standard is not something that happens overnight. I just hope that future generations continue to enjoy the challenge of doing so, and that old buggers like me are not the end of the line for future spring gun development.

    Andy
    Member, the Feinwerkbau Sport appreciation Society (over 50's chapter)
    http://www.rivington-riflemen.eu/ Andy, from the North !

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amac View Post
    You have made some very valid points chaps!

    Gary's comment about him learning with a PCP is probably the norm now, with probably most "serious" shooters who get fully drawn into the sport these days buying an excellent gun such as the AA 400 with which to learn crucial skills such as reading the wind if shooting outside of course.

    As I said in the previous post, who am I to recommend what anybody should start shooting with anyway? The main objective should be to get new shooters interested. If they choose to use a PCP then great.

    Maybe there are some shooters who just enjoy the amazing accuracy available from even a relatively cheap PCP and are happy to proceed with this approach. I cant help but think that they are missing out on a challenging aspect of our sport though. The problem appears to be that shooting springers is not something that comes as swiftly as the ability to hit the target with a recoil-less gun.

    I just hope that shooters new to airgunning at least consider learning to shoot a spring powered gun as they are missing out otherwise in my opinion.The challenge of shooting a springer to a high standard is not something that happens overnight. I just hope that future generations continue to enjoy the challenge of doing so, and that old buggers like me are not the end of the line for future spring gun development.

    Andy
    I must admit at being at complete odds to all these posts regarding the challenges of the springer etc..
    Maybe im the odd one out, or it could be that i tune my springers to the machinists level, removing much of the issues associated with the spring mechansim ... also only purchasing the highest quality versions.
    However, i regularly outshoot my soon to be sold Regal with both a 34 and Prosport albeit both supertuned to the limits of the art.
    Shot to shot consistancy is better, no power curves and no slight errors from feed mags...
    Throw in the fact im sick and tired of refilling and bottles ....and im about done.
    However, i do no shooting from cushions or supported situations...im purely a rough shooter over a big permission.
    Last edited by clarky; 29-12-2017 at 02:36 AM.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by clarky View Post
    Maybe I'm the odd one out, or it could be that I tune my springers to the machinists level, removing much of the issues associated with the spring mechansim ... also only purchasing the highest quality versions.
    As long as there's that big spring in there, to achieve anywhere near the 12fp, then they are still a different world to the PCPs.

    I can't really comment on why you can outshoot your Regal with your two springers. Maybe the Regal doesn't have a great barrel or maybe you haven't found the right pellet for it.

    If you've shot springers for a while then you maybe already naturally use the right techniques that can be so hard to get people to accept and put into practice.

    Sometimes what one person considers as super accurate is not really all that accurate to others. I'd shot springers for years since I was a lad and once I'd acquired a decent 25mm 77k that I'd tuned I thought I couldn't miss. I would practice hitting things about an inch diameter at ranges probably out to 40 yards and I could hit these almost every time from sitting and kneeling positions. So what was the problem? Why all these PCPs with bottles and leaks etc. See ... I've already sneaked in 'almost' everytime there and accepted that that is good enough. It's natural for people to kid themselves with comments like ... I can get 'most' inside an inch at XX range. Check out some of the videos on Youtube where you see people shoot a group of 5 and there is one 'flyer' and they say ... I'm going to ignore that one as it's a flyer ... or I pulled that one. So they then cover the rest with a 5p and say ... Look, I can get all pellets inside a 5p with this springer at this range. No they can't. You can't ignore that flyer.

    The big difference is when shooting out of a natural, normal, comfortable position. Many springer shooters have posted to say that they can shoot as accurate as the PCP shooters on the range on a good day. Have a slightly off day and the springer groups open up a little. Move out of the comfort position and the springer groups open up a little. NOTE ... A little. Not by loads. So if your chosen target is a tin can up the back garden, or a rabbit's head in a field at up to 40 yards, then you still probably achieve your goals and consider you are shooting very well. That's where the tight kills on modern tough HFT courses show that your groups have opened up and your scores dipped as a half inch change in POI, or a slightly opened up group, can mean 10 more misses on the scorecard.
    Last edited by bozzer; 29-12-2017 at 11:13 AM.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by clarky View Post
    I must admit at being at complete odds to all these posts regarding the challenges of the springer etc..
    Maybe im the odd one out, or it could be that i tune my springers to the machinists level, removing much of the issues associated with the spring mechansim ... also only purchasing the highest quality versions.
    .
    I suggest that you may well be the odd one out and you should be proud of yourself that shooting a springer poses no challenge and also that you have the skills necessary to tune a springer to a high level such that the challenge posed by standard out of the box rifles is minimised. OK, I added a few words to your text but I believe they convey the gist of your meaning.
    But please do not, for want of better words, 'look down on' those people who do not possess your skills. To the vast majority of springer shooters, mastering the beast is an integral part of the fun and character of the rifle. The pleasure derived from mastering the rifle and seeing your own skill level rise accordingly can be very satisfying. It is, to the majority, a superb way of developing shooting skills.
    Cheers, Phil

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Russell View Post
    I suggest that you may well be the odd one out and you should be proud of yourself that shooting a springer poses no challenge and also that you have the skills necessary to tune a springer to a high level such that the challenge posed by standard out of the box rifles is minimised. OK, I added a few words to your text but I believe they convey the gist of your meaning.
    But please do not, for want of better words, 'look down on' those people who do not possess your skills. To the vast majority of springer shooters, mastering the beast is an integral part of the fun and character of the rifle. The pleasure derived from mastering the rifle and seeing your own skill level rise accordingly can be very satisfying. It is, to the majority, a superb way of developing shooting skills.
    Cheers, Phil
    ...."please dont look down on people who dont possess my skills"
    Well there is no hint in my post that suggests i look down on anyone and the primary reason i provide a service or advice to anyone who needs it, especially if they are a fellow springer shooter....to help them.
    Its simply that i do not share the same enthusiasm for seated shooters with gigantic stocked PCP guns and associated parafinalia....because thats not what field shooting is about.
    I have simply found that with tuning levels similar to what Tony Hall or Tony Leach can perform, i have rendered the need for the PCP surplus to requirements for me personally ...
    This is not to say that the PCP cannot outshoot a springer on paper but the associated hassle to do so just aint worth it to me...
    The bottles or pumping, being aware of your pressures and power curves....running out....having to think constantly about air and availability....i just cannot be asked when im grouping into an inch at 45 yards.

  10. #85
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    Hi Clarky
    Thank you for the clarification. You are, however, in a privileged situation in that you are able to modify your rifle and have the inherent ability to shoot it at a high level such that shooting is not as much a challenge as it is to someone with far less experience and shooting a standard production rifle that has had no work done on it. So, maybe I put it rather wrongly in my first post: it may not be a challenge to you but it will be to far less gifted shooters. And I suggest that even with a highly tuned rifle, springer shooting is still a challenge to the majority.
    And if people wish to spend cash on their hobby and buy all sorts of equipment to aid their shooting (and I include rifle tunes here) and hopefully improve their performance, why not? I too have seen shooters with very expensive FT PCP rigs who missed a big 25yd kill even after spending ages fiddling with range finding and scope fiddling. But hey ... they were having fun in their chosen sport.
    Cheers, Phil

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Russell View Post
    I too have seen shooters with very expensive FT PCP rigs who missed a big 25yd kill even after spending ages fiddling with range finding and scope fiddling. But hey ... they were having fun in their chosen sport.
    Cheers, Phil
    Didn't know you'd ever seen me shoot Phil?

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by LESS THAN FORTUITOUS KENNETH View Post
    Didn't know you'd ever seen me shoot Phil?
    If I had known it was you I would have said 'hello'.
    Seriously though, all shooting is a challenge and it is more of a challenge to some than others. I have no doubt that PCPs are more forgiving of positional changes than springers but I still love shooting a springer despite the yoga positions I am forced into at an HFT shoot resulting in a less than perfect hold. Yes, there are times when I wish I did not have to do it; when the back creaks, the bones groan and it takes me longer to get up after the shot. But in a way it is enjoyable and seeing others in the same predicament somehow eases the pains (!!).
    It is also enjoyable watching a true master of the craft knocking targets down in bad conditions.
    Cheers, Phil

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Russell View Post
    It is also enjoyable watching a true master of the craft knocking targets down in bad conditions.
    That's probably my main point Phil. I'm not sure there are any.

  14. #89
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    Not sure about that Col. I still think that there are one or two shooters around who are capable of competing with the top PCP shooters occasionally. I would agree though that it is indeed much more of a challenge even for the best springer shooters to nail many of the tricky targets found on today's national level courses. I intend to try this myself during 2018, only because I have finally realised that the challenge and personal enjoyment of shooting a spring powered gun far outweighs any desire to just get a good score with a PCP.

    Many of us have used springers in the field for a long time with similarly good results Clarky. The problem is that with the difficulty associated with competition course were you have to take the shot, that 15mm kill zone with a gusting 15 mph wind take some dropping, particularly with a springer as you will know.

    Phil, it is clear that you are experiencing similar physical woes to myself as we amble around a course displaying all sorts of strange body positions! Those youngsters have it all to look forward to.

    Have a great and successful new year everybody!

    Andy
    Member, the Feinwerkbau Sport appreciation Society (over 50's chapter)
    http://www.rivington-riflemen.eu/ Andy, from the North !

  15. #90
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    Happy New Year Andy to yourself, James and all of your loved ones. Be happy and be well.

    Aye ... My last comment was a tad harsh.

    Good luck to all the springer shooters in 2018. Just enjoy.

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