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Thread: Spring gun revival (again.....)

  1. #106
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    I have to think that, like me, most of us have our good days and our bad days. My practice sessions have gotten much shorter these days because I know when it's no use to continue. Other days all is so good I just get up and walk away. I started to practice a little on Monday and I sat down on the bum bag and propped the TX on my knee pad. I picked a stray pellet hole out at my 25 m paper and fired. I couldn't see any change, so I tried again. I thought that the hole might be bigger but wasn't sure. After 5 shots, and now wondering if I was totally off the world bad, I picked a spot .5" away and shot. A new hole appeared right where I had aimed. It was time to move out to 50 m, where I can really see my shortcomings. Not a super group, but good enough to know my practice was over for the day. I used to shoot 20,000 pellets a year, minimum, but, now I just shoot enough to keep me in tune. I know the guns are ready, if I'm up to their level.

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by bozzer View Post

    I remember going to a local FT club with a springer. I wasn't doing that well. A guy, who became a good friend of mine, Keith Mepham, who ran a custom air rifle shop, said to me " I can keep tuning this rifle all you want ... but before you decide to keep spending money on it I suggest you let an experienced springer shooter show you what it is capable of in it's current state ". I thought they were harsh words but it was the best advice I ever had re springer shooting.

    I keep asking for someone to do this but I'll probably have to do it myself. Take one of my 77's. Put in basic internals. Shoot groups at a range and maybe do it in a variety of body positions. Then swap the internals for a set of fully tuned ones and, despite the probable smoother cocking/shooting cycle, see what the actual real life difference is on the targets. I've had basic rifles, and certainly basic home 'polished' ones, doing 18mm at 45 yards and an inch at 55 yards rested. How much better than that do you need, especially when trying to shoot standing or kneeling the groups open right up and wind drifts the pellets up to several inches. Always seemed to me that learning technique and wind was far more important than spending money trying to make a 18mm group 16mm at 45 yards.
    Wise words. But I would say that tuning isn't all about accuracy, it's about the "experience" of shooting too. Accuracy aside, people enjoy having a rifle that's as smooth to shoot as possible. I disagree that you need to be a brilliant marksman to enjoy a highly tuned rifle. It's like saying only racing drivers would enjoy driving a Ferrari.

  3. #108
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    Most people would drive a Ferrari like an old lady, or put it in the nearest tree.

    Anyone can probably enjoy owning a highly tuned springer, knowing that they have something that has been worked on and engineered to a very high standard. They can appreciate that it cocks smoothly and just gently goes 'Phud' instead of 'Twaaaang' when they pull the trigger.

    The point is that most people buy a springer and then struggle to achieve 3/4 inch groups at 45 yards. The rifle will be capable of that. They may only be able to achieve 2 inch groups at 45 yards when they start shooting springers ... and that's perfectly normal.

    No tune on the planet will make their 2 inch groups become 3/4 inch groups.

    A top springer shooter may appreciate the extra tad of accuracy from a fully tuned rifle.

    To be fair ... and balanced ...

    That's not strictly all true. A tuned springer will be more forgiving regarding hold sensitivity. So a tuned springer may be 'easier' for most to shoot, but the massive leaps will be related to technique and stock fit ... and time.

  4. #109
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    Springers

    I agree most pcps are soul less especially the electronic ones. I take my HW 80 .22 out regularly and try and hit the 60yd spinners with it. I get a warm glow of satisfaction when I hit them, and love the thump in the shoulder from my 80.
    mk2 rapid.22

  5. #110
    Antoni's Avatar
    Antoni is offline There's nothing cushy about life in the Women's Auxiliary Balloon Corps!
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    Heart rate

    Vey long time ago when shooting full bore pistol at a club, I heard rumours that one fella was taking his mum's blood pressure tablets to calm him down for the local comps.

    That always comes to mind now as I work the action of the HW80K for the next shot at the range. As in anything practice improves performance. But practice with a springer needs physical effort. Effort raises heart rate. High heart rate mitigates against relaxation and therefore the necessary calm and light control of the rifle.

    PCPs don't have that disadvantage; you could just concentrate on shot after shot.

    All the same I don't want one.
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  6. #111
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    Antoni

    Nice post. I love the last sentence after you've just explained why PCP's have even more advantages ( You still don't want one ... Good man ).

    I'll digress ... but this is what happens on internet sites. Also ... for a moment ... I'll be a little more serious than my posts normally are but I do think it's a point worth making ( well making again as it's been covered before ).

    Antoni's point is valid that the more physical effort required, then the higher the heart rate, and the higher the heart rate the less conducive that is to accuracy. To be honest, most guys that one sees out on a Sunday morning shooting at air rifle comps/clubs, aren't the finest examples of cardiac fitness. So their heart rates are probably elevated from carrying a bag or two around a course and getting up and down from sitting or prone stances. However, Antoni's point is still valid re extra effort to shoot a springer.

    I suffer from General/Anxiety and Depression. It's plagued me all my life. Constantly in a sensitised state with my mind switching on the Fight or Flight response at the simplest trigger. So my heart rate is usually higher than it needs to be.

    Just spending quiet time, away from the hustle and bustle, down a wood with my air rifle and a dog, is better therapy than any of the pills I've taken.

    I find shooting the springer for a couple of hours really helps. If my heart rate is elevated and my muscles tense, then my accuracy suffers. The springer is a great indicator as to how tense I am. So I have to concentrate on letting go. Letting go of any unwanted thoughts and letting go, as best I can, of any muscle tension. Then my body and my heart rate and my breathing relax ... and then I start to get better accuracy with the springer. So shooting the springer, out in the countryside, is like a great meditation session for me.

    Sorry ... got a bit Zen.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by bozzer View Post
    Just spending quiet time, away from the hustle and bustle, down a wood with my air rifle and a dog, is better therapy than any of the pills I've taken.

    I find shooting the springer for a couple of hours really helps. If my heart rate is elevated and my muscles tense, then my accuracy suffers. The springer is a great indicator as to how tense I am. So I have to concentrate on letting go. Letting go of any unwanted thoughts and letting go, as best I can, of any muscle tension. Then my body and my heart rate and my breathing relax ... and then I start to get better accuracy with the springer. So shooting the springer, out in the countryside, is like a great meditation session for me.

    Sorry ... got a bit Zen.
    Interesting point, concentration is about forgetting everything else, including anything that a person might be anxious about. Incidentally, Gautama Buddha, the founder of Buddhism and therefore of Zen, was reportedly an excellent shot with the bow in his life before he took up religion. There are several references to archery in his teaching, mostly to do with maintaining a peaceful mind. If he was around now, I am sure he'd be doing 10m match.

  8. #113
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    I too find that concentrating on shooting a few quality shots is very therapeutic as well. In saying that, I also enjoy shooting a tins worth of pellets which all helps with learning correct hold and technique, so it comes as second nature.

    Having been going through a bit of a bad period myself since last spring, I look forward to shooting my springers as often as possible as it genuinely helps my mood improve. Those reading this who are serious anglers will understand that I become totally absorbed in the act and just forget about all the s--t thats going on elsewhere. Not that the same level of enjoyment cant be had by chucking a load of lead down range with a dead gun, just that it takes more thought, effort and concentration to do so with a living gun.

    Going back to the point of my initial posting, I am honestly noticing more people starting to use spring powered rifles than I have seen for a long time. for example, one of the younger members of our club yesterday part exchanged his R10 for a new TX. I asked him today why he had done this. His reply was "with a springer I am aware that I am part of the shot cycle and when a decent shot comes off, it is far more enjoyable." I think many of us can relate to that. My own PCP target rifle has not seen the light of day for four months now. I cant see that changing any time soon. I would actually flog it but have been prevented by my son who reminds me that I might have to resort to using it to record some half decent scores in HFT. Thing is now though, I would rather enjoy the challenge of using a springer and enjoy it, than score the usual low 50s with the Anschutz. No, for me I am now totally committed to mechanically powered guns and the dead gun is now very much in the past. Having used the TX in a competition last week, I really and genuinely enjoyed what is a considerable challenge on today's course layouts. Not that you have to shoot competitions to enjoy using a springer of course!

    Anyway, I hope you all have a good week.

    Andy
    Member, the Feinwerkbau Sport appreciation Society (over 50's chapter)
    http://www.rivington-riflemen.eu/ Andy, from the North !

  9. #114
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    Sorry to sound like a stuck record (without actually adding anything), but the excellent posts on this King of threads just keep coming and mirror my sentiments.
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  10. #115
    Herx77 is offline "Instruments of the light"
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    Reading these threads brings back warm memories of the 80's at Markyate.
    In fact nothings new about springers it seems, just the repackaging of it.
    However there seems to be a different path to 'Nirvana' that is growing. Whereas the 80's competitive springer ( mainly FT capable of long range accuracy of 55yds)was to all aspects a live gun and the developement today it seems is to emasculate them so they almost are a pcp clone shotwise,....weights, over size stocks and anything to retard or absorbe recoil without controlling the live firing cycle.
    The 80's version was comparable to one straight out of the box today,compared to a fully tuned model,both it seems as accurate with differing amounts of skill input.
    Interesting regarding the heart rate control needed in the 80's where we found it could be dropped, and speculation was rife whether we stopped it or shot between beats?
    Don't know whether todays enlightened do this or feel a need to do so, certainly at Markyate ,Dave Welham, mark Commaccio, myself an Terry Doe did. Pcp's it seems do not need this level of control or molycoddling!
    HERX77 .
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  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herx77 View Post
    Interesting regarding the heart rate control needed in the 80's where we found it could be dropped, and speculation was rife whether we stopped it or shot between beats?
    Don't know whether todays enlightened do this or feel a need to do so, certainly at Markyate ,Dave Welham, mark Commaccio, myself an Terry Doe did. Pcp's it seems do not need this level of control or molycoddling!
    HERX77 .
    I wouldn't call my self one of today's enlightened by a long stretch. But I've been putting a lot of work into working with my heart beat and heart rate. I spent months working on my prone hold and technique, and got to a point where now my heart beat is the most noticeable 'wobble'.

    Haven't found the best solution for me just yet, but still working on it. My current plan is to up my fitness and lower my resting heart rate. I keep meaning to start a logbook of some kind to track my progress. Weapon of choice is a Concept 2 rowing machine we got off the bay. This is definitely not a quick fix but enjoying it so far.

    I would be interested to hear what heart beat methods you springer shooters had back then?

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooper_dan View Post
    I would be interested to hear what heart beat methods you springer shooters had back then?
    I'm not in the class of The Doe or other guys mentioned. I have been shooting springers since the 60's.

    In my experience the psychology is ...

    In most sports you will hear people talk about being in 'The Zone'. Sports therapists will talk about being in a state of 'Tone'. You don't want to be so laid back and care free that you aren't really concentrating on what you are doing. Also, you don't want to be so revved up and bouncing with adrenaline that you can't function with heart racing and muscles tense.

    You are basically trying to control an anxiety or excitement response from your mind/brain. It's basically the Fight or Flight Response. If the mind is overstimulated then the body releases cortisol and adrenaline and the heart rate rises and the muscles tense ready for action. You don't want this.

    A couple of things you can do is to try and free your mind from negative, sensitising thoughts. If you are shooting HFT or FT comps then try and maximise your time efficiency. After shooting one peg, get your stuff in your bag, and get off to the next peg as quickly as possible but in a calm way. Walk steadily and breath steadily. Don't stand doing an autopsy on the previous peg with your partners ... and then rushing off to the next peg and walking quickly so your heart rate rises. Forget that last peg. Take in any info that will be useful ... What did the wind do? ... What range did I estimate that at and was it correct and where is this next target in comparison? DO NOT dwell on a miss. Don't curse yourself for missing that last one. Don't think 'FFS I should have got that one ... I can't believe I missed that one ... I'm going to get a sh1te score today now'.

    Get to the next lane in good time. Take a few slow breaths to slow down your heart rate from the brief walk. Have a look around you. Check out the scenery. Realise how lucky you are to be well enough to be out with your mates shooting a few targets in the fresh air. Crack a few funnies. Keep the banter going to help relax you.

    When it's your turn to shoot then approach the peg and take another couple of slow relaxing breaths. Concentrate on your breathing and your technique. Make your technique very repeatable. DO NOT think 'I must get this one' or 'I just missed the last one ... I can't miss two on the trot' ... or 'If I miss another one I can't get a score of 50 plus'. It's just another target. The next target. It is unimportant if it goes down or not. All you have is your breathing and your technique. You will analyse the target for wind and range and you will pick an aim point. You will then concentrate on that aim point and release the shot to the best of your ability using repeatable technique. What happens next is nothing more to do with you.

    All this will prevent your mind from going into Fight or Flight and pumping you full of heart rate increasing chemicals.

    Your breathing affects your heart rate. Short shallow breathing will raise blood pressure and heart rate. Slower, deeper, abdominal, rhythmical breathing will lower blood pressure and slow heart rate. The in breath relates to the Sympathetic Nervous System, which is related to Fight or Flight and raising heart rate. The out breath is related to the Parasympathetic Nervous System, which is related to relaxation and diverts blood supply from the muscles and towards digestion. So just before you shoot you can take an easy deep breath in through the nose ... and then breath out slowly through your mouth, and let the out breath be slightly longer than the in breath. So breath in to a count of 4 and breathe out to the count of 5. As you breath out through your mouth think about all your muscles relaxing as you do so. Breathe out and let your body 'relax'.

    Just enjoy.

  13. #118
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    Heart rate ... very important and very good information above.
    Personally, when standing at the peg staring at the target (if I can see it standing) I am always very pleased to feel that I do in fact have a heart rate. I get down, try to find the kill zone again, try to relax, often with a stone or bit of tree prodding me somewhere, finally sending the shot on its way. Heave a sigh of relief as the shot plates; heavier relief if the plate goes down. Sigh again and eventually get upright again and note with further relief that I do, in fact, still have a heart rate.
    I fear not breathing could be a slippery slope so aim to maintain breathing at all times. So ... overall I am pleased with what I've got.

    Seriously though .. good advice above.
    Cheers, Phil

  14. #119
    Herx77 is offline "Instruments of the light"
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    I see Phil you have not yet reached the height of 'Nirvana' with heart control the ancient ones called...'De..ath'?
    HERX77 .
    Fighter against the "Dark Arts" A stranger in an even stranger land.
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    Weihrauch HW97k learning from above,now sporting a Maccarri 77/97 target stock..+Bushnell 3200.Go on shoot one you know you want to
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  15. #120
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    Bozzer - Really good post thank you. I have been reading a book about sports psychology recently, and wrote a short article which mirrors some of what you said (LINK HERE)
    As soon as I stopped reflecting on previous shots, I was much more focused on the next lane, and as if by magic, my shooting improved

    I shoot HFT with my springer and struggle with two things. Range finding, and competition nerves/over analysing missed shots.
    Last weekend we had a training day which removed both of those. The ranges were written on cards so you could look if you wanted, and as it was a training day there was no pressure to do well.
    As if by even more magic, I scored 96%. Way way above my usual score.

    Phil, is that a tactic to make people around you very worried for your health, and put them off their game

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