0.22 and 0.177 - What is the history?

[chieffool]

The answer lies in the rifling:
If the pellet size is .177 and the rifling is .0025 deep therefore the land size is .172 which is a fraction over 11/64 inch so the barrel could be drilled with an 11/64 drill.
For .22 pellets the barrel drill is 7/32 (.218) giving 2 thou rifling.

Mmmmm - i like your thinking....
....possibly...
BUT: what a 'weird' unit to begin from anyway. It just seems so 'arbitrary'.

Can anyone prove to me whether .22 as a rimfire (be it short, long, CB, etc) predates .22 as a unit for air rifle? Should be easy - shouldn't it?

Odd isn't it - that in early 'British' air rifles the No.1 (.177) load is prevalent over .22 - yet in the US it seems to be the reverse.

[bighit]

Mmmmm - i like your thinking....
....possibly...
BUT: what a 'weird' unit to begin from anyway. It just seems so 'arbitrary'.

Can anyone prove to me whether .22 as a rimfire (be it short, long, CB, etc) predates .22 as a unit for air rifle? Should be easy - shouldn't it?

Odd isn't it - that in early 'British' air rifles the No.1 (.177) load is prevalent over .22 - yet in the US it seems to be the reverse.

It wasn’t until around the 1840s that we started seeing firearms in .22 caliber. So the first airgun was no doubt a big bore and also a PCP.
.22 BB Cap Designed 1845


Airguns and rifling
The first modern air rifle was made by the BSA company in 1905 — right at the time all these important rifling lessons were coming together. This was decades before Marlin’s Microgroove rifling had been thought of and decades before polygonal rifling was tried. But BSA was aware of one thing from the start — light lead pellets are difficult to launch with just a small puff of air. Anything that inhibits their movement — like deep rifling or wide lands, is a problem.

so i would say rimfire .22 before airgun.22

[chieffool]

Aye, to answer the OP, It's simply that they are metric cals. 5.5mm and 4.5mm

.20 cal being 5mm.

I think the point is they ARE, and ARE NOT standard metric conversions. I think the confusion derives from 'nomenclature'.

Even more confusingly: there is different nomenclature for both 'Caliber' (which is a term for bullet size) and 'Bore' (which is a product of Barrel size).

FOR EXAMPLE: Calibre refers to the diameter of the bullet. A 9mm automatic uses the same diameter bullet as a .38 Revolver - the physical difference between the two is the design of the brass cartridge whereby the rim of the auto is designed within the external dimension of the brass, and for the revolver the rim is wider than the brass. BUT the size (diameter) of the bullet is IDENTICAL.

It is even weirder when you compare .38 vs .357 - because (again) the bullet in each cartridge is ALSO IDENTICAL, though in this case '0.357' (which is a decimal of an inch) is a product of nomenclature derived from the mathematics of rifling (too involved to go into here - read: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-di...and-mm-in-guns ).

That's not the point.
That's also NOT the question.

The WHY is the other way round. It is easy to consider 5.6mm and 4.5mm as the metric equivalents of '0.22' and '0.177' - but my belief is that WHEN these calibres were originated, both the science of manufacturing and engineering revolved around imperial scales...

And that's the bit that confuses me.

WHY choose a scale (imperial)...
...that doesn't have a direct conversion (fractions of an inch)...
....but which you can ONLY achieve accurate translation by expressing as a 'decimal' version?

Because a CALIBER is expressed in 'decimal inches' (I mean seriously - what the f@kk!!!). Remember the ridiculous derivation of Shotgun Bores (lead balls and stuff mentioned above)? Well this is weirder (and 'simpler').

• Essentially, a "caliber" is one inch.
• So a .45 caliber bullet is 45 1/100ths of an inch in diameter (and a .50 caliber...One half-inch)

Which means a 0.22 is actually 22 x 1/100ths of an inch

Seriously - what twisted 'genius' comes up with this stuff?

SO: the derivation of the nomenclature (hang on - i need another drink) AND the confusion is the product of trying to find a system of mathematical scales that converts one system accurately to another.

WHICH MAY FINALLY BOIL DOWN TO JUST ONE QUESTION: WHO DO WE BLAME FOR THIS?

[Rickenbacker]

Searching the old memory banks: Years ago we had a thread like this, and I think it was Walnutfarmmick who blamed the French.

[bighit]

Searching the old memory banks: Years ago we had a thread like this, and I think it was Walnutfarmmick who blamed the French.

it was a frenchie that designed the .22bb cap so he was right

Flobert guns
In 1845, French inventor Louis Nicolas Flobert modified a percussion cap to hold a small lead bullet. Flobert modified the cap further by creating a rim at the edge so that the cap and bullet could fit in a chamber of a pistol. The round contained no powder and was designed to be a toy. In 1845 Flobert made what he called "parlor guns" for this cartridge, as these rifles and pistols were designed to be shot in indoor shooting parlors in large homes.

[chieffool]

seriously - doesn't anyone ever go to bed on this forum?

I'm off - I'm supposed to be drawing a bead on little beasties at some ungodly hour, and i need my beauty sleep. Bog off - get a life!!!

[Rickenbacker]

I've been waiting for you to go to bed, so I can lock up.

[bighit]

seriously - doesn't anyone ever go to bed on this forum?

I'm off - I'm supposed to be drawing a bead on little beasties at some ungodly hour, and i need my beauty sleep. Bog off - get a life!!!

Its quieter at night some times

Gives the night manager (Phil) company and stops him eating all the Mods biscuits ration

Anywho i have been told its bed time by the wife

[Rickenbacker]

Its quieter at night some times

Gives the night manager (Phil) company and stops him eating all the Mods biscuits ration

Anywho i have been told its bed time by the wife

Thanks Paul.

And I'm totally in bed already!

[FPoole]

Why .22? Maybe that was the only really long drill bit the inventor had at hand.

[Shed tuner]

The percussion cap idea is also interesting... if shotgun percussion caps were a standard size, it may be that this led to the .22 cal being so "arbitrary" due to having to step down the ball sitting in front of it to leave a pocket for the rim..

I think it's a fascinating question.

[chieffool]

The percussion cap idea is also interesting... if shotgun percussion caps were a standard size, it may be that this led to the .22 cal being so "arbitrary" due to having to step down the ball sitting in front of it to leave a pocket for the rim..

I think it's a fascinating question.

Anyone got a percussion cap to hand to measure just to check?

[MartynB]

The percussion cap idea is also interesting... if shotgun percussion caps were a standard size, it may be that this led to the .22 cal being so "arbitrary" due to having to step down the ball sitting in front of it to leave a pocket for the rim..

I think it's a fascinating question.

It is, why any calibre, in this modern day they seems to apply science to create a calibre, watched an interesting program about an american company designing a new calibre / system for the military

[bighit]

It was from the black powder firearms percussion caps


maybe not the exact type and im sure some one will correct me .

Flobert then added a rim to the design and he put primer powder in the rim and the BB on the front .
and the Flobert .22bb cap was born .



Not the exact one as Flobert but a modern one


.22 CB Cap



Other Names: .22 , 6mm Flobert

Nominal Size: 5.6x10mm

Actual Size: 5.64x10.67mm

Case Type: Straight Rimfire

[bighit]

Anyone got a percussion cap to hand to measure just to check?

Pretty sure there is different sizes

Google brings up #10 and #11 sizes . And it depends on the nipples fitted to the firearm according to some on the forums i have found.

Maybe one of the black powder section users can give more info .