0.22 and 0.177 - What is the history?

[junglie]

I've often thought it could be that .177 came about around the time of the first world war to save lead & encourage people to shoot as being lighter maybe safer to shoot indoors(bell target etc.)

[Black Beard]

The first successful through-cylinder revolver firing a cartridge was in .22 short.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_...0%2C7900385592

The .22 centrefire predates the .22 hornet. Not sure if there was anything before this.

[chieffool]

It was from the black powder firearms percussion caps






Not the exact one as Flobert but a modern one


.22 CB Cap

I used to shoot these with dad in the garden when I was 10 using a 'scaled down' single shot rifle (dropping block) called an Ithaca.

Technically though: the one shown is a .22 BB which stands for 'Bullet Ball'. The CB variant is a pointed cone shape as the letters stand for 'Conical Ball'. Same principle, as just the 'primer load' and low velocity/short range. Great fun! Wish I'd kept it.

BUT: ARE WE ANY CLOSER TO A DEFINITIVE ANSWER?

[chieffool]

The first successful through-cylinder revolver firing a cartridge was in .22 short.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_...0%2C7900385592

The .22 centrefire predates the .22 hornet. Not sure if there was anything before this.

Just clarifying: I think you mean ".22 rimfire predates the .22 Hornet"- which was the first .22 caliber centrefire (ie had a primer set into the centre of the base of the cartridge)....

...I think...

[chieffool]

Pretty sure there is different sizes

Google brings up #10 and #11 sizes . And it depends on the nipples fitted to the firearm according to some on the forums i have found.

Maybe one of the black powder section users can give more info .

"...Anyone....
....Bueller...?"

[TheFixer]

First forgive me my physics aint what it used to be but:

If you are wondering why the sizes like .22 were arrived at in the first place it was down to trial and error to find a best solution for the physics issues of lobing a mass of metal as efficiently as far as possible with the power available, materials available etc.

The .22 is good trade off of mass of projectile, surface area (friction in bore), drag in flight etc which is how it was arrived at at some point in the distant history of its development.

Smaller calibres than .22 by nature of the increase surface area relative to mass are much less efficient - yes it takes less lead to make the projectile but more energy relative to fire it - like putting a spring for a 12 fp 177 rifle into a 22 will make the 22 greater than 12 foot pounds and vice versa.

However you measure it - metric, imperial, gnats todgers when you get to about 22 size you get towards decent efficiency, 177's are less efficient but as technology in airguns gave more power to use they became popular because of the flatter trajectory.

Calibres evolved through actual testing to see what worked best in the best tradition of industrial development.

[bighit]

I used to shoot these with dad in the garden when I was 10 using a 'scaled down' single shot rifle (dropping block) called an Ithaca.

Technically though: the one shown is a .22 BB which stands for 'Bullet Ball'. The CB variant is a pointed cone shape as the letters stand for 'Conical Ball'. Same principle, as just the 'primer load' and low velocity/short range. Great fun! Wish I'd kept it.

BUT: ARE WE ANY CLOSER TO A DEFINITIVE ANSWER?

All the listings i found said they were Bulleted Breech caps . But that does not get you the info you require


"like putting a spring for a 12 fp 177 rifle into a 22 will make the 22 greater than 12 foot pounds and vice versa."


I wonder what the tuning guys will make of that .I'm pretty sure springs are for any calibre rifle and are then cut or coil collapsed to tune the spring for the rifle its going into .

They used to say Gasrams from Theoben or Awt was calibre specific. never hear of calibre specific springs though

[chieffool]

First forgive me my physics aint what it used to be but:

If you are wondering why the sizes like .22 were arrived at in the first place it was down to trial and error to find a best solution for the physics issues of lobing a mass of metal as efficiently as far as possible with the power available, materials available etc.

The .22 is good trade off of mass of projectile, surface area (friction in bore), drag in flight etc which is how it was arrived at at some point in the distant history of its development.

Smaller calibres than .22 by nature of the increase surface area relative to mass are much less efficient - yes it takes less lead to make the projectile but more energy relative to fire it - like putting a spring for a 12 fp 177 rifle into a 22 will make the 22 greater than 12 foot pounds and vice versa.

However you measure it - metric, imperial, gnats todgers when you get to about 22 size you get towards decent efficiency, 177's are less efficient but as technology in airguns gave more power to use they became popular because of the flatter trajectory.

Calibres evolved through actual testing to see what worked best in the best tradition of industrial development.

That is sort of true, otherwise .22 and .177 would not have been adopted for air guns as they developed. The point I'm making is that .22 was originally a rimfire caliber for firearm (both pistol and rifle) decades BEFORE it was later adopted for air rifle ... and '22 1/100th of an inch' is a very odd standard to adopt, especially when it doesn't appear to translate directly into the imperial standards manufacturing would have been working with.

The question is still: why was .22 originally developed?

I quite like the percussion cap theory mentioned earlier today as the possible development starting point. Still waiting to see if anyone has any measurements from early caps which would support this?

Or maybe this really was just a bizarre accident in trial and error, and when it proved successful, others merely followed suit.

Interestingly - if that IS the case, then that might suggest there really is an absolute 'first prototype' somewhere out there.

[chieffool]

All the listings i found said they were Bulleted Breech caps . But that does not get you the info you require

Firstly: you are absolutely right.... (but CB still stands for Conical Ball).
Never occurred to me until just now, but we use the term BB for airgun ammunition presumably from a historical link to this .22 caliber description - and yet 'BB' is actually (now) .177 in airgun terms!

[chieffool]

"like putting a spring for a 12 fp 177 rifle into a 22 will make the 22 greater than 12 foot pounds and vice versa."


I wonder what the tuning guys will make of that .I'm pretty sure springs are for any calibre rifle and are then cut or coil collapsed to tune the spring for the rifle its going into .

They used to say Gasrams from Theoben or Awt was calibre specific. never hear of calibre specific springs though

...and SECONDLY: I never knew that?
...Is that true? (at the risk of displaying my ignorance)

[eyebull]

...and SECONDLY: I never knew that?
...Is that true? (at the risk of displaying my ignorance)

In an ideal world the gauge of spring would be different for .177 and .22, but manufacturing economics being what they are the same spring is used but in different lengths for .177 and .22.

[chieffool]

In an ideal world the gauge of spring would be different for .177 and .22, but manufacturing economics being what they are the same spring is used but in different lengths for .177 and .22.

OK. i see the logic in that immediately. cheers

[bighit]

According to AWT that made the rams . and when i called theoben for one for my old rifle years ago they asked if it was for a .177 or .22.

http://www.airgunbuyer.com/Showprodu...n%20Gas%20Rams

Look at the listing .


Theoben Gas Rams
.177 cal BSA Lightning XL.

PLEASE NOTE: WILL NOT FIT THE "SE" MODELS.

£59.95
1
Submit
Theoben Gas Rams
.22 cal BSA Lightning XL.

PLEASE NOTE: WILL NOT FIT THE "SE" MODELS.

£59.95

Although i have heard some say they fitted a .177 ram in a .22 and it never went over 12ftlbs but they never said if they bought the rams new or used . if used they could have leaked and lost pressure before being fitted .


picture here . you may have to enlarge it . it states putting the wrong ram could put the rifle over the limit https://www.dropbox.com/s/pwinhilq0d...eoben.png?dl=0


Or if you mean the bit about springs ? look on the parts sites .

MS036 is the spring . Only one listed https://www.gunspares.co.uk/products/24578/HW99/
MS072 is the spring . only one listed https://www.gunspares.co.uk/products/24562/HW35/


As posted above . One standard size spring or that model that is then modified to suit the rifle its going into .

[eyebull]

According to AWT that made the rams . and when i called theoben for one for my old rifle years ago they asked if it was for a .177 or .22.

http://www.airgunbuyer.com/Showprodu...n%20Gas%20Rams

Look at the listing .


Theoben Gas Rams
.177 cal BSA Lightning XL.

PLEASE NOTE: WILL NOT FIT THE "SE" MODELS.

£59.95
1
Submit
Theoben Gas Rams
.22 cal BSA Lightning XL.

PLEASE NOTE: WILL NOT FIT THE "SE" MODELS.

£59.95

Although i have heard some say they fitted a .177 ram in a .22 and it never went over 12ftlbs but they never said if they bought the rams new or used . if used they could have leaked and lost pressure before being fitted .


picture here . you may have to enlarge it . it states putting the wrong ram could put the rifle over the limit https://www.dropbox.com/s/pwinhilq0d...eoben.png?dl=0


Or if you mean the bit about springs ? look on the parts sites .

MS036 is the spring . Only one listed https://www.gunspares.co.uk/products/24578/HW99/
MS072 is the spring . only one listed https://www.gunspares.co.uk/products/24562/HW35/


As posted above . One standard size spring or that model that is then modified to suit the rifle its going into .

The lightning has a very short barrel (comically short, under that moddy/shroud), so even when oversprung it's not going to make use of that available energy like a longer barrelled rifle might.
They are capable of going over though, just.

[bighit]

The lightning has a very short barrel (comically short, under that moddy/shroud), so even when oversprung it's not going to make use of that available energy like a longer barrelled rifle might.
They are capable of going over though, just.

The lightening quote was just used as an example to show that there was a .177 ram and a .22 ram .

when i fitted One in my Air Arms Hi-power i was asked by Theoben if it was a .177 or .22 ( im not even sure if there was a .177 Hi-power).