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Thread: 1853 3 band Tower Enfield (reproduction or Original?)

  1. #1
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    1853 3 band Tower Enfield (reproduction or Original?)

    Hi all,

    My Grandfather has an old 1853 Tower Enfield rifle that has been hung on his staircase wall for a very long time. As a kid I have always seen it on the wall but never asked him about it.

    So the other day to settle years of curiosity I asked if I could take a look.

    I found out that it is a 1853 Enfield, done some research and I am fairly confidant in my knowledge about them now. But I do know that there have been many reproductions throughout the years.

    Parker Hale made some in the 1970's, which is around the time he got it. Now he say's it is a original 1853 but how can you tell?

    I dont have any images of it at the moment but Ill be at his tomorrow so I can have a look.

    I did remove the barrel from the woodwork and there is, what i presume to be a makers mark on the inner stock just in front of the trigger (cant remember the name either...) And there were some other markings on the barrel but they were sort of faded (Looks like hallmarks, could be proof marks? also stamped number 12(?))

    Anyway, so my question is this:

    Is there anyway to tell between a original 1853 and a repo?

    Cheers.

    Jake

  2. #2
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    The proof marks should date it.

    There are others on here who know more about them than I do.

    A clear picture or sketch would be necessary to identify them.

    Its not unusual for an original to turn up that has been on a wall or in a cupboard for years.
    A gun club member saw a ramorod on a bootsale and asked if the seller had anything else and he mentioned he had a gun.
    He went to see it and it was and original Enfield. It had been hung in the kitchen for years and the condensation had covered the outside of the barrel in small rust pits.
    The bore was good and so he bought it and used it.

  3. #3
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    The Parker Hale wil have a roundall on ths flat of the stock saying " Parker Hale", an original will have "Enfield" with a 1 or 2 below it. Which means a 1st or 2nd class of arm. Also the side plate behind the hammer will have a crown over PH if its not original, or crown over VR if it is.

  4. #4
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    Sounds very interesting. Iv had a couple of Parker Hales and currently have a Muskatoon which is a great rifle to shoot, always brings a smile to the face of anyone shooting it.
    Sadly Iv never owned an original but seem to remember there where a few "wall hangers" that where made with working triggers etc but had a small hole drilled in the underside
    of the barrel. Mine has Parker Hale stamped on the metal and a round stamp on the stock. I doubt if originals where ever made for anything but shooting but best to get it checked
    out before using it. Would be great if its un fired original.!!

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by tim56 View Post
    Sounds very interesting. Iv had a couple of Parker Hales and currently have a Muskatoon which is a great rifle to shoot, always brings a smile to the face of anyone shooting it.
    Sadly Iv never owned an original but seem to remember there where a few "wall hangers" that where made with working triggers etc but had a small hole drilled in the underside
    of the barrel. Mine has Parker Hale stamped on the metal and a round stamp on the stock. I doubt if originals where ever made for anything but shooting but best to get it checked
    out before using it. Would be great if its un fired original.!!
    With what others have said it looks like it is an original. My grandfather was given it by some old feller back in the 70's.

    Ill have another look later today and take a picture or two.

    Thanks for the replys

    Jake

  6. #6
    keith66 is offline Optimisic Pessimist Fella
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    An old boy i know has a converted original, shortened forestock & smoothbored barrel. He had had it since he was a kid, He had never used it but i found it was still loaded with a caked old charge of blackpowder & shot.
    There were also the Bengal carbines sold in the 70's, 12 bore, 25" barrel & captive swivel ramrod, I had one, it was not good quality but it gave me a lifelong love of blackpowder. Proper muzzleflash with that short tube!

  7. #7
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    Remember that if it IS real, and from what you've said it very probably is real, then it will not need to be put on a firearms certificate, which, presumably, you don't have anyhow. It is classed as a genuine antique and it can stay on the wall in good health.

    All Parker-Hale-made guns were stamped Parker-Hale Birmingham, usually underneath the barrel, and will have Birmingham proof house stamps - crossed sceptres and letters in between the staves. It will also be marked something like Calibre .577" and 3.5 DRAMS black powder, or similar. It will also have a serial number on the left-hand side of the breech just visible above the wood. The butt-plate will be brass, as will the trigger guard, and the ramrod will be in one piece with a very short head with a slot in it. the other end will have a thread. The barrel bands will be blued steel.

    As Tim notes, the P-H gun will also have a Parker-Hale roundel on the lower end of the butt. Anybody who knows anything about this type of firearm will instantly be able to tell you if it is a genuine Enfield or not.

    If is is a Parker-Hale-made gun, AND rifled, then it is a modern replication, and as a Section 1 firearm, subject ot the Firearms Acts. To own it you will need a Firearms Certificate, and starting from scratch, as you will be, is a long and tedious process. No doubt there are people here who can advise you best how to proceed from that point, but as I've never done it, I can't advise you. As one gentleman found out to his cost a few years ago, walking into your local police station with an unregistered firearm can lead to all kinds of complications.

    Tim's comment about the P-H-made wall hangers is also a valid one. They were, as he notes, de-activated by drilling a hole where no hole should be, thus satisfying the requirements of deactivation of the time. This might pose an added complication, as it will not meet the provisions of the 2017 deactivations criteria, and you cannot sell it, or otherwise dispose of it for any gain, just in case it somehow falls into the wrong hands and gets used to throw acid over somebody's face [sarcasm selected here] or to hold up a corner store...

    tac
    Last edited by tacfoley; 14-01-2018 at 11:46 PM.
    Several guns and trains.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacfoley View Post
    Remember that if it IS real, and from what you've said it very probably is real, then it will not need to be put on a firearms certificate, which, presumably, you don't have anyhow. It is classed as a genuine antique and it can stay on the wall in good health.

    All Parker-Hale-made guns were stamped Parker-Hale Birmingham, usually underneath the barrel, and will have Birmingham proof house stamps - crossed sceptres and letters in between the staves. It will also be marked something like Calibre .577" and 3.5 DRAMS black powder, or similar. It will also have a serial number on the left-hand side of the breech just visible above the wood. The butt-plate will be brass, as will the trigger guard, and the ramrod will be in one piece with a very short head with a slot in it. the other end will have a thread. The barrel bands will be blued steel.

    As Tim notes, the P-H gun will also have a Parker-Hale roundel on the lower end of the butt. Anybody who knows anything about this type of firearm will instantly be able to tell you if it is a genuine Enfield or not.

    If is is a Parker-Hale-made gun, AND rifled, then it is a modern replication, and as a Section 1 firearm, subject ot the Firearms Acts. To own it you will need a Firearms Certificate, and starting from scratch, as you will be, is a long and tedious process. No doubt there are people here who can advise you best how to proceed from that point, but as I've never done it, I can't advise you. As one gentleman found out to his cost a few years ago, walking into your local police station with an unregistered firearm can lead to all kinds of complications.

    Tim's comment about the P-H-made wall hangers is also a valid one. They were, as he notes, de-activated by drilling a hole where no hole should be, thus satisfying the requirements of deactivation of the time. This might pose an added complication, as it will not meet the provisions of the 2017 deactivations criteria, and you cannot sell it, or otherwise dispose of it for any gain, just in case it somehow falls into the wrong hands and gets used to throw acid over somebody's face [sarcasm selected here] or to hold up a corner store...

    tac

    I went to their house the other day for lunch, I misread, it is a 1856 3 band tower enfield.

    There are defiantly no parker hale logos on the rifle. And it looks genuine to me now I have had a proper look.

    I have a few photos, though they are bad quality due to lack of light. Ill upload one of it on the wall along with two old shotguns my grandfather has on his wall.


    Here are the images, again the lighting was bad sorry. The bottom is the gun in question and there other two are a muzzle loading shotgun and another shotgun (I have no idea of the make of either, if anyone recognizes one, please shout out)




    https://i.imgur.com/RNI5WMO.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/KwPIMTY.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/Prl4mrs.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/DICYGOR.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/vvfUcoA.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/gSBYxZo.jpg

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huttles94 View Post
    I went to their house the other day for lunch, I misread, it is a 1856 3 band tower enfield.

    There are defiantly no parker hale logos on the rifle. And it looks genuine to me now I have had a proper look.

    I have a few photos, though they are bad quality due to lack of light. Ill upload one of it on the wall along with two old shotguns my grandfather has on his wall.


    Here are the images, again the lighting was bad sorry. The bottom is the gun in question and there other two are a muzzle loading shotgun and another shotgun (I have no idea of the make of either, if anyone recognizes one, please shout out)


    https://i.imgur.com/gSBYxZo.jpg

    That's real.

    Any more images of the rest of it?

    tac
    Several guns and trains.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacfoley View Post
    That's real.

    Any more images of the rest of it?

    tac
    Not at the moment, will be back at the weekend. so ill take more then.

    Cheers

  11. #11
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    A friend of mine collects s58 Enfields and has eight in rifled and smooth bore, including two of the sergeant issue with the shorter barrels. I have one of his Indian issued tower Enfields on my sgc as a shooter so Iíll takes some pics of the proof marks tomorrow for you to compare.
    DesG
    "Si vis pacem, para bellum !"

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesG View Post
    A friend of mine collects s58 Enfields and has eight in rifled and smooth bore, including two of the sergeant issue with the shorter barrels. I have one of his Indian issued tower Enfields on my sgc as a shooter so Iíll takes some pics of the proof marks tomorrow for you to compare.
    What a pity he doesn't shoot them. They are great fun, smelly and noisy. What more could a Victorian era BP shooter desire?

    tac
    Several guns and trains.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacfoley View Post
    What a pity he doesn't shoot them. They are great fun, smelly and noisy. What more could a Victorian era BP shooter desire?

    tac
    In his case a sgc. Heís on happy pills.
    DesG
    "Si vis pacem, para bellum !"

  14. #14
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  15. #15
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    Some nice marks there - who was J Guerin?

    tac
    Several guns and trains.

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