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Thread: Webley Hawk Mk III

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    Hsing-ee's Avatar
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    Webley Hawk Mk III

    Just aquired one of these in .22 calibre.

    I have never liked Webley airguns, although I have owned a couple of Tempests, a Vulcan Mk 1, an Eclipse and even a Webley Service Mk II. I have also shot a Webley Vulcan Mk 2 and Vulcan Mk 3, a Webley Mk 3 underlever as well as a Webley 'Firebolt' which isn't a Webley at all.

    I just don't like them. One of the 'worst' Webleys is supposed to be the Webley Hawk Mk 3, which I am now the owner of. I was for a while, their top-of-the-range sporting rifle, the Osprey being the fixed barrel rifle for the target shooter.

    First impressions:

    Positives

    Surprisingly good quality blueing.
    A barrel which seems to be cleanly rifled and well-crowned.
    A fore-sight block, which while it is lacking an interchangeable element, has an attractive angular design.
    The rear-sight is chunky and easy to use, but made of fragile plastic (chipped and glued by previous owner)
    Stock sits nicely in the hands and is spot-on for the open sights. Full, strong pistol grip feels good in the hand and places the pad of the index finger in the right place on the trigger.
    End-cap design gives an attractive curve to the rear of the action, like that on an Airsporter or Mercury, and the overall impression is quite elegant and 'porpoise/dolphin' like.
    Breech lock-up seems very solid.
    Trigger welds seem solid enough for the moment.

    Negatives

    Cocking lever secured by a roll-pin to the breech block. Is this an original fasterner, because it looks like a scrimping bodge.
    Stock retaining screws are nasty cheap Phillips headed jobs, similar to that used on modern-day Chinese cheapies.
    One side of the back-block retaining pin hole is slightly out of round, a common problem on Hawks.
    Safety is a cheap stamping, although possibly no worse than the Feinwerkbau Sport of the period.
    Creaking is evident on cocking as the spring has no guide (what WERE they thinking of?).
    Lateral movement of the barrel is evident if it is rocked from side to side (classic 'wobbly Webley' issue) although without an accuracy test I cannot tell if this actually causes a problem.
    Trigger is narrow, something that would be easily improved by a shoe. BSA managed a nice wide blade on the Meteor, and that was even cheaper than the Hawk.


    I have not actually test fired it yet either through a chronograph or for accuracy, but I am looking forward to it. I am hoping to work through the rifle and address all the issues and see what it is capable of with all of them 'fixed'.

    Having heard the rifle slagged (apart from BTDT) over the years I am surprised at how appealing it is, lightweight, quite good looking and very pointable. It is also much more similar to the first Vulcan rifle than I realised.

    As I recently acquired an HW50 of the same vintage, which is a direct competitor to the Hawk III, it will be interesting to see how much difference in performance and 'useability' there really is between the 'down to a price Hawk' and the 'classic German engineering' 50. I've got a feeling that after a bit of fettling they won't be that different...

  2. #2
    ggggr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hsing-ee View Post
    Just aquired one of these in .22 calibre.

    I have never liked Webley airguns, although I have owned a couple of Tempests, a Vulcan Mk 1, an Eclipse and even a Webley Service Mk II. I have also shot a Webley Vulcan Mk 2 and Vulcan Mk 3, a Webley Mk 3 underlever as well as a Webley 'Firebolt' which isn't a Webley at all.

    I just don't like them. One of the 'worst' Webleys is supposed to be the Webley Hawk Mk 3, which I am now the owner of.

    First impressions:

    Positives

    Surprisingly good quality blueing.
    A barrel which seems to be cleanly rifled and well-crowned.
    A fore-sight block, which while it is lacking an interchangeable element, has an attractive angular design.
    The rear-sight is chunky and easy to use, but made of fragile plastic (chipped and glued by previous owner)
    Stock sits nicely in the hands and is spot-on for the open sights. Full, strong pistol grip feels good in the hand and places the pad of the index finger in the right place on the trigger.
    End-cap design gives an attractive curve to the rear of the action, like that on an Airsporter or Mercury, and the overall impression is quite elegant and 'porpoise/dolphin' like.
    Breech lock-up seems very solid.
    Trigger welds seem solid enough for the moment.

    Negatives

    Cocking lever secured by a roll-pin to the breech block. Is this an original fasterner, because it looks like a scrimping bodge.
    Stock retaining screws are nasty cheap Phillips headed jobs, similar to that used on modern-day Chinese cheapies.
    One side of the back-block retaining pin hole is slightly out of round, a common problem on Hawks.
    Safety is a cheap stamping, although possibly no worse than the Feinwerkbau Sport of the period.
    Creaking is evident on cocking as the spring has no guide (what WERE they thinking of?).
    Lateral movement of the barrel is evident if it is rocked from side to side (classic 'wobbly Webley' issue) although without an accuracy test I cannot tell if this actually causes a problem.


    I have not actually test fired it yet either through a chronograph or for accuracy, but I am looking forward to it. I am hoping to work through the rifle and address all the issues and see what it is capable of with all of them 'fixed'.

    Having heard the rifle slagged (apart from BTDT) over the years I am surprised at how appealing it is, lightweight, quite good looking and very pointable. It is also much more similar to the first Vulcan rifle than I realised.

    As I recently acquired an HW50 of the same vintage, which is a direct competitor to the Hawk III, it will be interesting to see how much difference in performance and 'useability' there really is between the 'down to a price Hawk' and the classic German engineering 50. I've got a feeling that after a bit of fettling they won't be that different...
    I think that the Vulcan was just a Hawk Mk3 with a 2mm bigger diameter cylinder? Anyhow, Mick tuned his hawk, machining up the piston head etc, but got an increase in power just by sleeving the transfer port. Other than that, I'd go for a BSA Meteor Mk1- Mk5 mainspring, as they fit the piston better than the Webley springs, sort out a guide and get rid of the safety slide and sear spring and just use a Victor sear spring instead. I like to use an O ring in the front piston groove and retain one of the ptfe rings in the rear groove (after I tried 2 O rings and found one was pressurising the other and they got hot and the gun would lose power). A very slagged off gun but I don't think they are bad for what they are.
    You may come across a later metal rearsight on the bay if you wanted to fit one.
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    Hsing-ee's Avatar
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    Thanks Guy, I am sure you have seen a few of these over the years. The 'O' ring tip is good because I havent got a lathe to go the whole hog with the parachute seal.

    Do you know any breech bolts and nuts that will fit off another rifle?

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    harry mac's Avatar
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    Well, I can't resist commenting on a Hawk thread. I've always liked the Hawk, although, I'm very aware of all its short-comings. I think you're right in saying the Hawk was built down to a price, but Webley compromised in the wrong areas. The rifle had lovely bluing, as you say, it was really well presented in its packaging, the sights were micro adjustable and it had an automatic trigger safety; on the face of it, The Hawk had all the ingredients for a great sporting air rifle, unfortunately some of the components, materials and manufacturing procedures seem to have been lacking.
    Was the Hawk made on the back of a drop in company profits? Did it cause a drop off in profits? I don't know, but with the number of times my own Hawk MkII went back to the factory, and the number of broken rear sights and cracked fore sights I've experienced, I'm pretty sure the Hawk was responsible for some loss of reputation.
    The reason my dad bought me a Webley for my 11th birthday was the reputation the company had for workmanship and quality. When the rifle broke within 18 months of buying it (trigger housing weld), he was sorely disappointed, and remarked on it none too politely.
    The South of England has 2 good things, the M1 and the A1. Both will take you to Yorkshire.

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    ggggr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hsing-ee View Post
    Thanks Guy, I am sure you have seen a few of these over the years. The 'O' ring tip is good because I havent got a lathe to go the whole hog with the parachute seal.

    Do you know any breech bolts and nuts that will fit off another rifle?
    Ok---here I am in an unheated kitchen on the big old desk top and my fingers are turning purple----_BUT! Here are my thoughts on how to go about what you want to achieve.
    Firstly I am pretty sure the front stock bolts are unc thread (without checking), so if you measure them, you should be able to get a few cap heads to replace the phillips head things (I think they made those screws triangular as some sort of way of stopping them coming undone?). Secondly, If you can find or make a nut to slip/glue/solder into the trigger housing, you can use a slightly longer rear stock screw that isn't held by about 3 1/2 threads!
    Reguarding the cocking arm pivot being a roll pin, I would leave it unless you are really bothered by it. You could replace it with a peened over solid pin (Like the Cadet/Major), which would be a pain if you wanted to remove it, or tap a thread on one side of the hole and find a bolt to fit. To fit a lock screw would be a pain, so I'd just use threadlock on it.
    The elongated cylinder pin hole. I know some idiot with bad arms who filed out the cylinder hole and and end cap and fitted a pin from a Bsa Meteor. Doing it with a drill woulrd be easier. I used a Meteor pin as I had one.
    Right--the barel pivot bolt. This is mainly ideas and guess work. The pin seems to be 1/4 inch in diameter so you could get a 1/4 inch shanked cheese head bolt and then get someone to turn down a bit of round bar and tap it to the right thread, then put a saw cut in the head for using a forked screwdriver. You would have to enlarge either side of the breech jaws to take the screw head/nut (Needing a flat bottomed hole). I am not sure if the Mercurys with the bolt were the same size as earlier Mercurys. If so, then one of those should fit, but you would need the hole under the bolt head to be just over 2mm deeper as the Webley breech block is that much thicker than the Bsa one. I would ask on here for a Hawk My 3 Cylinder (broken would do) and tinker/ weigh it up before making a mess of yours.
    Good luck

    Just having a further think on this, I would guess that a breech bolt off an Omega would be the right diameter, but you would need somebody to make you a top hat insert of the right thread, to go into the right hand breech jaw, plus the left one recessing for the bolt head.
    If you had a bolt of the right diameter, with a shank on it, you could always cut/file slots in the stock around the pivot pin, stick long bolt through and tighten up with a nut and washer-------------but that would only be to give you an idea of whether to proceed with something else. If you made a neat enough job of it it would me you could nip up the breech without having to take the action out of the stock.
    Last edited by ggggr; 17-01-2018 at 10:24 AM.
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  6. #6
    Hsing-ee's Avatar
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    Thanks Guy, lots of good suggestions there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hsing-ee View Post
    Thanks Guy, I am sure you have seen a few of these over the years. The 'O' ring tip is good because I havent got a lathe to go the whole hog with the parachute seal.

    Do you know any breech bolts and nuts that will fit off another rifle?
    I did the o ring conversion on my mark 2 on the front ring only, reduces the chance of deiselling as the original ones become impregnated with oil. If you want a couple posting pm me your address.

  8. #8
    Hsing-ee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peddy View Post
    I did the o ring conversion on my mark 2 on the front ring only, reduces the chance of deiselling as the original ones become impregnated with oil. If you want a couple posting pm me your address.
    Thanks Peddy, will do..

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