Talk to me about Diopter Sights

[eyebull]

Just got an AA S220 Target foresight, and an SMK diopter for my HW30S. The idea is to have a good Bell target set up if I ever have the opportunity to do it, and also just to have a low powered but accurate baby springer for short-range but accurate plinking.
With that in mind I was originally set up for a combination that seemed quite popular on here: a williams rear peep sight and the fibre-optic HW front sight. Sadly though, if you saw my moany thread last week, Herman W buggered this right up for me by pressing the barrel dovetails off-centre, so with some help from a few members I have gone to plan B - new foresight, new rearsight.
The foresight was straightforward to fit with a little filing of the dovetails (no compunction about doing this as they are off-centre and thus useless, and being misaligned would have made filing grooves in the AA foresight unnecessarily complicated). I bought the SMK diopter a) because it was cheap and b) because it had a lot more area on the dovetail clamp compared to the AA/Daisy rear dipoter. TBH it seems robust enough and reasonably well made.

I have no clue whatsoever about diopters though, so a few Q's;

Where can I get elements for the AA foresight? Are they compatible with another brand?
Is there even much advantage to messing around with elements?
What sort of eye-relief should I have on the rearsight?
What should my sight picture look like?
How much space should there be between the rearsight hole and the outer ring of the foresight?

What else should I know about using these kind of sights?

[Hsing-ee]

They are dead simple, they fit them to service rifles.

Position the rear-sight so you can see the foresight blade clearly/sharply through the aperture. This will usually be very close to your eye, like with a scope.

For bell-target I suppose you would use a square-post fore-sight element, placing the square top under the black bit of the round target. Maybe a ring-element would work better with bell-target, I don't know what size the aiming point is, get a ring that is not too big or too small, you need a good ring of light around the black aiming mark.

You look through the sight, kind of ignoring the aperture (you don't consciously try to line it up) and by some kind of miracle your eye/brain automatically centres the foresight in the middle of the sight picture. Ignore the foresight hood, that is just there to protect or support the blade. You just see the foresight blade in the centre of your field of view. If you do 'look' at the aperture it will be all blurry and probably not look circular. So don't!

Place the post under your aim-point, get your breathing sorted, and press the trigger.

Its actually the easiest sighting system to use.

[Geezer]

Hsing-ee is on the money. Aperture sights are great and underrated.

Grammar git alert. Foresight is the ability to envision future developments. A FRONT SIGHT is the thing on or towards the end of the barrel of a rifle or pistol.

And don't get me started (shooting mags....) on the idea of a "stance" (kneeling, sitting, prone) that doesn't involve standing. It's a position, not a stance. If it's a stance, it involves standing.

Rant over. Have a nice day, all.

[averageplinker]

Please let us know how you get on with the SMK sight as I am tempted.

[SuffolkRifle]

As said, they're dead simple, I use aperture both ends, brain seems to know when the circles are all aligned.
Got SMK dioptres front & rear, could do with the front aperture a little bit smaller (doesn't stop me putting pellets through the same hole at 10 yards kneeling though).
Great idea, sunny outside, think I'll get that gun out & have a plink!

[Frog]

Yes different front sights can be a real help.

Target shooters tend to go with a round hole that, when you view the intended target from the intended range, allows you to center the aiming point around the target center with a bit of a margin.
On a paper target what you see is the black target center and ring of white just outside the black bit and then the edge of the sight.

The eye will line all that up pretty automatically and concentrically allowing for an accurate shot. Of course a given aperture on the front site really only works for the intended target at the intended range in this way but will still be good for other things at other ranges.

That may be clear as mud but I hope not and that it helps.

Frog

[rancidtom]

I think you'll find Anschutz elements will fit the AA front sight unit you have (I don't have an AA front sight to check but I can measure up Anschutz elements if you need the dimensions), the aperture you need (if using a ring element) will depend on the length of your sight base and the amount of "daylight" you need around the black circle of your target. This is largely personal preference but the smaller the visible gap between the inner of the ring element and the outer of the black circle (3/8" hole at 6 yards for Birmingham league).
As regards the rear sight or "diopter" you will find that the distance from your eyeball affects the amount of light (through the sight aperture) you get into the eye, also the width of the field of view and critically the focus of the front element. Adjust the distance and you will find a spot where the front sight element is in sharp focus without having to "strain" anything. You will also find it much easier to shoot with both eyes open and to use some sort of "blinder" for the non-sighting eye, there are rules about the sizes of blinders for 10m competitions check your local bell target league rules to make certain you are within them.
Your sight picture should easily come into focus on the front element and your brain will centralise the element over the black spot of the target. Do not worry about the fact that you can't focus perfectly on the target, the black spot may be a little fuzzy but your brain will centre the spot, it is crucial the front element is sharp, you may need glasses to help this.
If you use a large front element there will be a large white ring around the target black spot, don't be misled into the thought that a small gap will make it more accurate, just like using too high a magnification with a tele sight it makes the wobble more obvious and it makes it more difficult to centre the black spot.
Bell target is always shot standing, you will need to find a stance that suits you and allows you to keep the rifle on aim with the minimum of effort, correct windage and elevation by moving your feet rather than leaning or twisting the torso. When you are shooting a long competition it helps that you aren't straining to keep a position, you will soon tire if it is an effort to keep the rifle on the target.

[Hsing-ee]

Hsing-ee is on the money. Aperture sights are great and underrated.

Grammar git alert. Foresight is the ability to envision future developments. A FRONT SIGHT is the thing on or towards the end of the barrel of a rifle or pistol.

I learn my good speaking Inglish from e Bay. There are many front sights sold as 'foresights' on that channel. A foresight dictates an 'aft' sight, of which there are none, so you must be correct.

Apertures can give accuracy as good as a scope so long as the shooting is at paper targets in good light. I think they are great for training beginners as they do not 'dance' with the newbie's wobbles and therefore are less likely to encourage trigger-snatching.

[eyebull]

This has all been very helpful chaps, thank you very much!

...I think you'll find Anschutz elements will fit the AA front sight unit you have (I don't have an AA front sight to check but I can measure up Anschutz elements if you need the dimensions)...

If you could that would be great. The AA has a tab on each side, one larger than the other.

[eyebull]

I learn my good speaking Inglish from e Bay. There are many front sights sold as 'foresights' on that channel. A foresight dictates an 'aft' sight, of which there are none, so you must be correct.

I'm going to call them 'aft sights' from now on, just to annoy Geezer

[Ragle Jnr]

Having shot prone small bore for many years, I've used apertures fore and aft. My Walther came with a fixed rear and selection of front elements,Mine have two lugs, one larger than the other. The selection included two post types, one wide and one narrow. I then made a set of Perspex elements, drawing the outer diameter with a fine marker, then drilling holes from 3 to 3.4 mm, the drilled hole appears as a fine black line, but I also countersunk a few to increase the size of the black ring. It's a matter of choice, if you can try a few other people's sights you will find a wide range and hopefully something that suits you. The best improvement for me however was an adjustable rear diopter, it can be tuned to ambient light, head position etc. David

[rancidtom]

I have pulled out an old Anschutz M18 front sight ring to measure for you to compare with the AA sight ring.
Width across tabs: 21mm
Diam (outer diam of ring): 17.2mm
Left tab:2mm high
Right tab: 3mm high.
The right tab has the size of the aperture stamped on it, the tabs are both based on the centre line. Measurements taken with a vernier caliper.
If your metal sight ring is identical your sight unit should also accept the Anschutz style perspex elements, there are various styles and prices vary as other manufacturers offer styles that Anschutz don't make. Be careful buying from certain auction sellers as I have seen some that claimed to be Anschutz compatible that didn't fit. Early Feinwerkbau (as found on the FWB300) elements were not quite the same size as Anchutz M18's I haven't got any to measure but they were a little smaller, possibly 16mm from memory, also Parker Hale elements were commonly 5/8" and you will find they don't fit an Anschutz sight. Until the M18 sight was superseded by M22 front sights the Anschutz unit seemed to be the standard that Walther, Hammerli, Diana, Weihrauch and eventually FWB followed.
Hope this helps.

[eyebull]

That's excellent Tom, thank you.

[gc93]

hi my tabbed fwb front elements don't fit my aa s200t front sight but the non tabbed Perspex fwb do, if that helps. atb gc93..