Are springers stuck in the 80s?

[Geezer]

Yes, especially since the 25mm 77 and the short stroke TX of the time are better mechanically than the current offerings...

Springers went about as far as they could. It's the same with firearms, the Mauser action is still used when a precisely accurate, magazine fed rifle is needed for sport or war.

There were the Whiscombes, Parks and the like, but they didn't give much of an advantage when everything was weighed up.

You are not quite right on Mausers. The Remington 720/700 multi-lugged bolt bested the Mauser in about 1950 and has done ever since.

For the rest, I agree.

[TonyL]

Hmm. You might like a Rutten Winstar Mach 1, with a front-hinged underlever and a loading trap... It's like a ProSport had sex with a Webley Eclipse while thinking about a Daisy Powerline.

https://www.co2air.de/thema/9463-rut...cal-7-5-joule/

Different.....and no!

For the one I'm describing, picture something like the LGV. Barrel still opens, but only a few degrees and with that fine (I guess) barrel latch. But barrel not connected to a cocking arm / linkage, hence the underlever. Barrel under no stress and loading is direct to breech with total safety. Nice, short transfer port like a HW80 (if the barrel latch allows).

Although the underlever could still have your fingers! Having said that, a little like a tap loader, you'd simply cock the action and return the lever in one action, so it's not like you're having to hold it open to load.

As mentioned previously though, it wouldn't be boasting the fastest loading sequence.

Not even saying it'd be viable or that I have a burning desire for it, like!

[Hsing-ee]

Different.....and no!

For the one I'm describing, picture something like the LGV. Barrel still opens, but only a few degrees and with that fine (I guess) barrel latch. But barrel not connected to a cocking arm / linkage, hence the underlever. Barrel under no stress and loading is direct to breech with total safety. Nice, short transfer port like a HW80 (if the barrel latch allows).

Gotcha. Like a BSA Spitfire PCP? But with a spring and an underlever ... It's certainly an interesting variation.

[Drew451]

Yes they are, when the sliding-breech escaped from the Match rifle and Communist camps and made it to Sporting Rifle land it was all over. Dumping leather piston seals etc etc were all detail moves.

I think the most important thing has been the improvements of the pellets, and the dumping of the tap-loaders which, with a tiny number of exceptions, were shite compared to their break-barrel sisters. Your Diana 35 is probably far more accurate than any Diana 50 anyone on the board has got, and more powerful too.

There are a lot more to choose from now though, although all variations on a theme. I might get a Hatsan, as that is a truly modern springer.

No one will make a 22mm bore, it is as likely as Air Arms making a HW99S-type rifle. Not a big enough market...

My .177 Original 50 is ahead of my 35's in accuracy and smoothness. It's behind them in power but Im not fussed. Its a 10m gun and does its job very, very well.
I've always thought the original Walther LGV absolutely superb. And no recoiling springer comes close in smoothness, quality and build in my opinion.

[Hsing-ee]

You are not quite right on Mausers. The Remington 720/700 multi-lugged bolt bested the Mauser in about 1950 and has done ever since.

For the rest, I agree.

It's a source of some controversy!

http://www.sniperforums.com/forum/ri...0-actions.html

[Barryg]

- FAC power: lots more guns now, but same formula as the 80, AA PE, Webley Patriot. Big cylinder and very long stroke.

I personally think that as a production springer the AA TX HC is going to be hard to beat for UK limit for some time, if ever

The same with the 80 for FAC but the Diana 460 is different because it is a fixed barrel underlever with a sliding breech that has more FAC power than the 52 but is very light weight and accurate, what gun can you compare with it.

I would like to see a new UK airsporter that could beat the lot of them

[Rickenbacker]

Yes they are, when the sliding-breech escaped from the Match rifle and Communist camps and made it to Sporting Rifle land it was all over. Dumping leather piston seals etc etc were all detail moves.

I think the most important thing has been the improvements of the pellets, and the dumping of the tap-loaders which, with a tiny number of exceptions, were shite compared to their break-barrel sisters. Your Diana 35 is probably far more accurate than any Diana 50 anyone on the board has got, and more powerful too.

There are a lot more to choose from now though, although all variations on a theme. I might get a Hatsan, as that is a truly modern springer.

No one will make a 22mm bore, it is as likely as Air Arms making a HW99S-type rifle. Not a big enough market...

I know everybody says that Air Arms say "there's not a big enough market (meaning in the USA), for lower power airguns".

But I've read this:

Finally, by upgrading the trigger and sights, and adapting the now well-known Beeman R1 stock design, we were able to rather easily create the Beeman R7 and R8 rifles from less sophisticated HW models. Despite its position as the most expensive mid-sized air rifle in the world, the R7 has always been a top seller, and even has come close to equaling sales of the R1 itself. This is not really puzzling to any reasonably intelligent shooter who actually has carefully examined and handled this gun and who knows that so many American shooters put quality well ahead of price. Frankly, even from my point of considerable bias, I really must say that it's a gem!

(my bold).
From: https://www.beemans.net/odyssey_of_the_beeman_r1.htm

I believe the R7=HW30 and R8=HW99 (roughly).

So who says an Air Arms middleweight break barrel wouldn't sell all over the world (in other words - in North America)??

[Hsing-ee]

So who says an Air Arms middleweight break barrel wouldn't sell all over the world (in other words - in North America)??

It's a solid logical argument. Not everyone in the USA wants a high-power air-rifle, in fact why should they when they can get a .22 rimfire easily? They want something they can shoot in their yard without disturbing the neighbours, something accurate and easy to handle.

Like the Air Arms ProCadet, the new HW99S-sized break-barrel, which at 6.8 lbs is the lightest in the springer range, fitted with the CD trigger and making 11 fpe. Although on paper very similar to the HW99S and the Walther Terrus, it is heads and shoulders above them in terms of fit and finish, and is sure to erode the market for both these rifles as well as the Beeman R7.

[Rickenbacker]

It's a solid logical argument. Not everyone in the USA wants a high-power air-rifle, in fact why should they when they can get a .22 rimfire easily? They want something they can shoot in their yard without disturbing the neighbours, something accurate and easy to handle.

Like the Air Arms ProCadet, the new HW99S-sized break-barrel, which at 6.8 lbs is the lightest in the springer range, fitted with the CD trigger and making 11 fpe. Although on paper very similar to the HW99S and the Walther Terrus, it is heads and shoulders above them in terms of fit and finish, and is sure to erode the market for both these rifles as well as the Beeman R7.

I know! And I feel very smug that only you and I have been smart enough to buy one.

Mine's in .177

[Hsing-ee]

I know! And I feel very smug that only you and I have been smart enough to buy one.

Well, only a real enthusiast would notice the Ken Turner inspired centrally-positioned transfer port and barrel... the hoi polloi will catch up in time.

[Barryg]

Not everyone in the USA wants a high-power air-rifle, in fact why should they when they can get a .22 rimfire easily?

Don't forget that they still have city laws

[eyebull]

Not entirely sure what you're expecting really... It seems to me the whole 'springer spring' is all about the rejection of clinical PCP's for the simplicity and independence of the spring powerplant.
If you start fannying about adding complication or making them dead to shoot you're back at square 1 and in the PCP marketplace again...

TBH I'm not married to this whole 'live' gun thing, I don't mind if it is dead to shoot at all, especially if this results in increased accuracy.
What attracts me to the spring powerplant is its self-contained nature, ease of servicing and relative value for money compared to PCPs.
Personally I don't see why the sled system isn't used more, it doesn't have to be complicated or necessarily add that much weight.


If we're looking for off the wall rifle ideas, how about a scaled-up HW45 type system,; barrel over cylinder, scope/sights attached to barrel housing so no misalignment issues, ratchet can take care of the safety, direct barrel feeding, phosphor bronze piston seal so it will run forever, rifle can be very short, put a sled in to eliminate any piston bounce or surge issues caused by lost volume.
Or...a modification of Tony L's idea - front hinged sidelever, barrel pops up at rear to load.

[eyebull]

It's a solid logical argument. Not everyone in the USA wants a high-power air-rifle, in fact why should they when they can get a .22 rimfire easily? They want something they can shoot in their yard without disturbing the neighbours, something accurate and easy to handle.

Like the Air Arms ProCadet, the new HW99S-sized break-barrel, which at 6.8 lbs is the lightest in the springer range, fitted with the CD trigger and making 11 fpe. Although on paper very similar to the HW99S and the Walther Terrus, it is heads and shoulders above them in terms of fit and finish, and is sure to erode the market for both these rifles as well as the Beeman R7.

The idea has legs. I think the American market is getting over it's obsession with power and has realised that pellets do not like being pushed to supersonic speeds, nor are most springers pleasant to shoot at 30 ft/lb.
In a way I think the whole big-bore craze has helped, because if you really want a super powerful airgun that's now the route you go down.

[TonyL]

Like the Air Arms ProCadet, the new HW99S-sized break-barrel, which at 6.8 lbs is the lightest in the springer range, fitted with the CD trigger and making 11 fpe. Although on paper very similar to the HW99S and the Walther Terrus, it is heads and shoulders above them in terms of fit and finish, and is sure to erode the market for both these rifles as well as the Beeman R7.

I know! And I feel very smug that only you and I have been smart enough to buy one.

Mine's in .177

Well, only a real enthusiast would notice the Ken Turner inspired centrally-positioned transfer port and barrel... the hoi polloi will catch up in time.

You DO realise we're still in January chaps, yes?

[Squirrelking]

The same with the 80 for FAC but the Diana 460 is different because it is a fixed barrel underlever with a sliding breech that has more FAC power than the 52 but is very light weight and accurate, what gun can you compare with it.

460 is rated at 26j same as 52 and is only 300g lighter than the 52 and HW80 (both 4.0kg)

350 series are probably what you are thinking of; 30/32j in regular or NTEC @ 3.8kg.

https://www.diana-airguns.de/fileadm...talog-2017.pdf
(page 35)

http://www.weihrauch-sport.de/air-ri...w-80-k?lang=en