Ideal angle for the butt pad on an HFT stock?

[averageplinker]

Hi all,

I am trying to pull together my ideal (in theory at this stage) HFT Springer. It will have a Mk 1 HW85 action, an HW98 .177" barrel and an HFT style stock.

I have taken a punt on a stock that was for sale on here hoping it will fit or can be made to fit. There is no butt pad and the butt of the stock slopes slightly back/down. In other words the bottom of the butt is slightly forward of the top.

Is this usual for an HFT type stock? If so what are the advantages?

Cheers Rich.

[Murphy]

Only a guess but human shoulders are not flat.

[bezzer]

It all boils down to what suits YOU best and gives you the correct repeatable mounting each time, you'll see all types and styles at an HFT shoot. From all singing dancing adjustable pads to standard rubber pads. I use my AA 400 with a standard butt pad couldn't get on with an adjustable I fitted once. You'll have to experiment.

[cooper_dan]

That might be a good angle for holding high up on your shoulder. If you needed to hold the but lower down you might need it to slope the other way.
Springers are funny things. They all need to be held differently, and POI can change between the positions unless you find that perfect hold.

[averageplinker]

Perhaps I was not detailed enough in my first post. The stock is clearly meant to have a butt pad on it and I intend to add one, probably something along the lines of the bisley adjustable one. Before I do the butt angle intrigued me and I began to wonder if I should leave it or alter it.

Instinct tells me that the current angle is more suited to standers or the FT sitting position and might be less well suited to prone which of course is the most common stance HFT.

[bezzer]

.
Instinct tells me that the current angle is more suited to standers or the FT sitting position and might be less well suited to prone which of course is the most common stance HFT.

You won't know until you've tried/tested it, you may love it or loathe it then you can decide whether to use it as is or chop it. As already said everyone's different you can't generalise

[averageplinker]

I can appreciate that I may or may not like it/it may or may not suit me. That is the same whether it is a cheap plinker or expensive ubergun with a swish stock.

But what I was hoping for were details of stock making theory as to the intended purpose or reason for such an angle on the butt. (For instance the drop to heel of a stock can be different on guns intended for standing shots compared to those intended to be shot prone.)

[Charlts]

It needs to be a compromise, take your cue from sporting guns or other compromise setups.

[averageplinker]

It needs to be a compromise, take your cue from sporting guns or other compromise setups.

Thanks Charlts, that mirrors my own thinking and it is good to see I am not the only one to think that way. Given the HFT need to take shots from all 3 positions without being able to adjust the stock etc a vertical butt pad which can be moved up and down until the best compromise is found seems wise to me.

[bozzer]

I started a thread of similar interest on Shooting the Breeze very recently. It's in the HFT/FT section.

Most 'standard' stocks ( typical standard wooden stocks ) are generally called 'Sporter' stocks. The butt of the rifle generally slopes further downwards as it gets further back from the pistol grip. So at the rear end of the butt the top of the butt will be lower than line of the action/barrel. Furthermore the end of the butt is usually angled so that the bottom is further forwards than the top ... as you describe.

These 'Sporter' stocks are generally designed for kneeling and standing shots. In the kneeling and standing positions the action/barrel is lined up just below the eye, for open sights, and a little lower when a scope is used. In relation to that level ( all with reference to the ground ) the shoulder will be considerably lower, and the 'Sporter' style stock's butt will sit naturally in the shoulder. An adjustable buttpad can still be useful for standers and kneelers as it can be tweaked to make that butt fit perfectly to each individual's shoulder.

The problem is ... in the prone position the shoulder is now much higher than in the standing and kneeling positions. It is usually actually higher than the action/barrel. So a true target prone rifle will have a buttpad that sits very high, and higher than the action/barrel. True target prone rifles don't have the down sloping wooden butt that your standard sporter stock has. True prone is shooting up on the elbows and using a sling to take the weight of the rifle on the fore arm. Do a Google search for Olympic 50m Prone photos.

So technically if you were designing/altering/making a stock for pure prone shooting then you would have the butt pad very high and above the line of the action/barrel.

The problem with HFT is ... it is a compromise ... and the rules allow people to not shoot in a true prone position ... but to shoot in a HFT style fore arm/hand/butt of rifle rested on the ground. Not every shot can be taken like this, but most are by most people.

The other problem you have as a springer shooter is that the greatest majority that shoot HFT, shoot PCP. So most shooters are using a PCP and on most prone shots they are resting the fore hand and fore arm on the floor and resting the butt on the floor. This actually makes the shoulder even higher than in true prone. So to fit the buttpad in the shoulder ( where it should be in a purer sense of shooting ) the buttpad would have to be way above the action/barrel line.

However, you don't get to take every prone shot in that low HFT 'rested on the ground' style prone position. On some shots you have to get up on your elbows to get over obstacles. So again that would mean a different position of the butt to fit in the shoulder.

You also have to take 6 shots per 30 shot course standing and kneeling ( 3 each ). So again a high buttpad would be well out of place for these shots.

The only part of the rifle that can touch the ground in prone shots is the bottom of the buttpad.

What most shooters do ( and remember most shooters are using a PCP ) is they set their adjustable buttpads quite low, to accommodate standers and kneelers, and on the low HFT style prone shots they rest the bottom of the buttpad on the ground. So in the prone position their buttpad is nowhere near their shoulder. It's sitting under the armpit and resting on the ground.

So for you shooting a recoiling rifle ...

You need to practice at a range and see if you can get good accuracy from shooting your springer in the HFT low position with the butt rested on the ground. Some find that the butt on the ground, especially if they use a padded mat to lie on, doesn't cause POI problems. Some other springers shooters ( and the odd PCP shooter ) just prefer to shoot in the more traditional prone, elbows off the ground and butt in the shoulder, position.

If you set your buttpad low then it will be in the right position for standers and kneelers, but it won't be in the right 'true' position for the majority of shots, which are prone. As stated above most PCP shooters don't worry about having it in the right position for prone because they rest the butt on the ground.

If you set your buttpad so that when you shoot up on the elbows, with butt off the ground, and in your shoulder, then it will be way out for standers and kneelers. You can get around this by raising your shoulder higher on those shots. Not ideal.

Like I said ... Compromise.

Some shooters shoot with the front hand and butt off the floor but they still stay quite low in the prone position. They set the butt slightly higher that the wooden butt of their sporter stock, and the buttpad actually rests at the top of the bicep rather than in the shoulder. When shooting standing or kneeling it isn't that much too high and a slightly raised shoulder in those positions will get some decent contact with the buttpad.

It's HFT. You cannot adjust the stock or buttpad once you have taken that first shot. You have to find what works for you.

[hotversion]

If this helps,all target stocks and rifles I've had have no angle atall there all flat I would invest in a wegue style butt pad,or cheaper and adjustable Brian Sampson one,it's all about the fit.

[averageplinker]

Marvellous responses, thanks for the very useful info. Bozzer it must have taken some time to write your comprehensive answer so many thanks. Interestingly when I last shot HFT about 8-10 years ago I seem to recall you were not allowed to rest your butt on the ground. Something else for me to factor in.
Cheers

[hotversion]

Marvellous responses, thanks for the very useful info. Bozzer it must have taken some time to write your comprehensive answer so many thanks. Interestingly when I last shot HFT about 8-10 years ago I seem to recall you were not allowed to rest your butt on the ground. Something else for me to factor in.
Cheers

Yes you can rest the butt on the ground on a prone position

[lensman57]

Hi all,

I am trying to pull together my ideal (in theory at this stage) HFT Springer. It will have a Mk 1 HW85 action, an HW98 .177" barrel and an HFT style stock.

I have taken a punt on a stock that was for sale on here hoping it will fit or can be made to fit. There is no butt pad and the butt of the stock slopes slightly back/down. In other words the bottom of the butt is slightly forward of the top.

Is this usual for an HFT type stock? If so what are the advantages?

Cheers Rich.

The genuine Wagu ButtPad had the perfect size curvature for the pad to sit in the shoulder. I have a few of these so called FT/HFT style pads and none of them are really anygood for HFT. FT is a different matter.

A.G