RFD’s requirement if over 12ft/lbs

[Muskett]

quote ,,,I am an RFD, if somebody brings me a faulty gun which chrono's over 12FtLb then it is immediately locked in the cabinet for disposal, repair or until the owner has applied for and received the relevant certificate to possess the gun as an FAC (Section 1) airgun. The customer will be made aware that it is a lengthy process and the storage charges may be more than the gun is worth.

I to am an RFD, i was told by West Mids Police that if a situation like that arises where a customers gun is tested and found to be over the limit, i was to give it them back and recommend they reduce the power, When i questioned this i was told, if i was to accept the gun, i would be in charge of a illegal gun, thus i would be breaking the law, Common sence would say as an rfd, i would be able to reduce the power for the customer, making it legal, rather then letting him walk away, with technically a firearm, then everyone's happy and legal, but no if i accept it, i could be done!!, Even the officer i asked thought what i said was logical, but as he said, he's only following the rules.

Personally i wouldn't like the idea of taking someone's gun of them if it was slightly over, dont think they would be to happy

It seems to me, that certain police forces interpret the law to suit themselves, as obviously Tom was told different to me, as he could take the gun of a customer, Who's right??

Its more this^

The non FAC rifle has failed its MOT and should be corrected so doesn't fall foul of any laws. Joe Blogs doesn't have the ability to know what power their rifle is, which has been tested in Court. Once he does he is responsible to get it back under the limit. The best defence is never have a gun tested and don't own a chrony. Put a new spring in it then it requires testing.

For a RFD then its not their property, so best to advise the owner to get the gun sorted as fast as feasible. The owner now knows that the gun requires a service. A bit like a RFD seeing a gun obviously out of proof and advise accordingly.
This shouldn't be confused with an RFD selling an out of proof gun, or an air rifle over the legal limit. They have due care, and beyond, on this.

It must be remembered that any air rifle can be forced to go over the limit, through dieseling. However, if it was to it would be unintentional, the manufacturer, the RFD, the owner, wasn't intentional nor aware. Once aware then the onus is to have it serviced and the error corrected.

A FAC rifle once registered as a FAC Rifle cannot be un-FAC'ed. However, for a non FAC gun when serviced its normal that some fettering would be required to get it set up correctly to the right power. Once a gun has been found to be over the limit, it may well require proof that every effort was being made to reduce it back under the limit. Taking the spring out would show some effort was made, and getting it booked in for a service. Having said that home servicing is also worthy, just more difficult to prove; book in another chrony test as you would going back for another MOT after a small failure.

[where's it gone]

Interesting thread. Many years ago, I took a HW77 to a RFD to replace the spring and so called tune up. When I collected the rifle, the power was explained as ' it now shoots to page X in the yellow pages, where it only shot to page X before.'
My, how things have changed.

[distantcamera]

Interesting thread. Many years ago, I took a HW77 to a RFD to replace the spring and so called tune up. When I collected the rifle, the power was explained as ' it now shoots to page X in the yellow pages, where it only shot to page X before.'
My, how things have changed.

Hah! That's exactly how teenaged me tested air rifles. Out of interest when I became a grown up and had an HW77 that I knew was doing 11.4 with the pellets I had I fired it into a yellow pages. Fair to say my teenage owned guns were well under the limit.

[lensman57]

Hah! That's exactly how teenaged me tested air rifles. Out of interest when I became a grown up and had an HW77 that I knew was doing 11.4 with the pellets I had I fired it into a yellow pages. Fair to say my teenage owned guns were well under the limit.

Didn't the US army's definition of ' lethal ' was determined on how far a pellet would penetrate a piece of 1" wood at 50 yards or something along those lines? I guess they have made ours simple by setting it at 1J.

A.G

[where's it gone]

Interesting thread. Many years ago, I took a HW77 to a RFD to replace the spring and so called tune up. When I collected the rifle, the power was explained as ' it now shoots to page X in the yellow pages, where it only shot to page X before.'
My, how things have changed.

When you look at it, if you know the power of a rifle and fired into an Argos catalogue, recorded the page number the pellet penetrated, you could use this as a very rough measure of the power of any other rifle, couldn't you ?

[lensman57]

When you look at it, if you know the power of a rifle and fired into an Argos catalogue, recorded the page number the pellet penetrated, you could use this as a very rough measure of the power of any other rifle, couldn't you ?

No that is not strictly true. A pointed/diabolo pellet made of hard lead alloy fired from a weaker gun would penetrate much deeper than a pellet of wadcutter/hollow point design made of soft lead alloy fired from a much more powerful gun. It is energy dissipation that determines how far a pellet would penetrate into a catalogue or even into the ballistic gel.

A.G

[AndrewE]

I agree with your interpretation Nimrod177.
The reason I started this thread was that I was told by my RFD the FAC reg was the only option after confiscation and could not be offered the “reset to sub 12ft/lb at my cost”
I have a cheep chrono which I use to keep my gun inside the law but would like the option to confirm my old chrono is giving the correct readings. The fear of having my gun confiscated with out getting it back make me not want to have it checked.
Where would I stand legally if I was over but I had been regularly testing my guns on my chrono but that chrono was show to be wrong. Could it be shown I was ‘showing due diligence’?

[rancidtom]

I agree with your interpretation Nimrod177.
The reason I started this thread was that I was told by my RFD the FAC reg was the only option after confiscation and could not be offered the “reset to sub 12ft/lb at my cost”
I have a cheep chrono which I use to keep my gun inside the law but would like the option to confirm my old chrono is giving the correct readings. The fear of having my gun confiscated with out getting it back make me not want to have it checked.
Where would I stand legally if I was over but I had been regularly testing my guns on my chrono but that chrono was show to be wrong. Could it be shown I was ‘showing due diligence’?

It's a completely hypothetical question but...
Firstly up to the police, secondly up to the Crown Prosecution Service and thirdly up to the magistrates or judge/jury if it goes to Crown Court.
If you wish to verify your chrono ask the chrono manufacturer if they can or will calibrate it for you.
Even a calibrated chrono can give incorrect readings if used incorrectly so bear that in mind, no matter how you plead that you used it regularly and believe it to be correct the way the firearms act is written doesn't give anyone any "leeway" and certainly doesn't express or imply a "diligent" procedure, not you the owner or the RFD who may chrono a gun and find it over.
As stated previously there is no prescribed procedure for RFD's however in my case (and I'm sure most RFD's will do the same) I will advise the cutomer on the options and endeaver to adjust a gun if possible to get it under the limit.

[secretagentmole]

A FAC rifle once registered as a FAC Rifle cannot be un-FAC'ed. However, for a non FAC gun when serviced its normal that some fettering would be required to get it set up correctly to the right power. Once a gun has been found to be over the limit, it may well require proof that every effort was being made to reduce it back under the limit. Taking the spring out would show some effort was made, and getting it booked in for a service. Having said that home servicing is also worthy, just more difficult to prove; book in another chrony test as you would going back for another MOT after a small failure.

Yes it jolly well can. Norfolk allow RFDs to take an FAC gun, make it sub 12 and will remove it from the FAC register. Once again it all depends on the police in your area. Some forces will, some won't!

[Muskett]

Yes it jolly well can. Norfolk allow RFDs to take an FAC gun, make it sub 12 and will remove it from the FAC register. Once again it all depends on the police in your area. Some forces will, some won't!

Oh good. I wasn't sure what was involved and how difficult. Nice it is possible.

Would that mean a Webley Patriot, which is basically an FAC rated Omega, be deFAC'ed? Or many of the FAC rated Theobens? Just that there are a few too many, being FAC, sitting on shelves with little likelihood to find a new home.

A rifle found well over the limit could be dismantled, spring taken out, so therefore could leave the shop. I think we would all just like a sensible solution.

[bighit]

Oh good. I wasn't sure what was involved and how difficult. Nice it is possible.

Would that mean a Webley Patriot, which is basically an FAC rated Omega, be deFAC'ed? Or many of the FAC rated Theobens? Just that there are a few too many, being FAC, sitting on shelves with little likelihood to find a new home.

A rifle found well over the limit could be dismantled, spring taken out, so therefore could leave the shop. I think we would all just like a sensible solution.

You would have to ask your force if they will allow it as some do and some don't . you may be able to have it taken into aN RFD thats forces does allow it and have it done.

I know some have de tuned the Theoben Eliminator and they said they were poop. Maybe if short stroked they may be better

[Muskett]

Thanks.

I think the faffing about makes it a lot of work so never going to be common practice.

All good to know.

[keithy]

We need to push the BASC to push for an amendment to the wording in the legislation and remove the word capable. In addition have an allowance built in of say + 1ft lb for pellet variation.