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Thread: New Webley Service

  1. #76
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    I’ve been in touch with Tony Belas at Sterling, with a link to here, and with his permission, here is the response from Tony.

    “Thank you for the link which I have been reading with interest and points noted. I really appreciate your help and when I have a little more time and we have decided on which direction to go in I will post directly. The PCP Mk2 is fascinating and actually suggested at the planning phase not knowing that it had been done before. Got to say that the one in the picture is just genius .

    We went to great pains to say that the rifles were prototypes shown as such so we could get customer feedback before we start production. This seems to have been lost on the posters who seem to think the guns shown were a done deal. The interchangeable barrel thing for example, it came across loud and clear at the show that that was a feature that was wanted, no problem, we will do that but it drives up cost, probably at least £130 per barrel assembly. Yes they can have it but are they prepared to pay up to £1300 for a fully tricked rifle? Or will we have boxes of unordered spare barrels, time will tell.

    We will give it another week and then firm up some specifications and get on with making them! Please could you pass on my thanks to the BBS? Keep ‘em coming and be as critical as they like, its not an ego trip we are on it’s a business trip!

    Atb

    tony

    T Belas”

    They’re listening folks!! :-)
    NON SUFFICIT ORBIS

  2. #77
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    So it's a PCP? Ah, that changes things a bit! But only a bit. It still doesn't deal with the absence of a peep sight like the original, or the question of who might actually use it, and what for?

    I think we all realised they were prototypes and work in progress. We were careful to recognise the innovative thinking - and that was before it was clear we were talking PCP!

    The extra cost of a removeable barrel drives this product even further from the values of originals, but knowing it's a PCP and thus recoilless does at least differentiate it from the original.
    Vintage Airguns Gallery
    ..Above link posted with permission from Gareth W-B
    In British slang an anorak is a person who has a very strong interest in niche subjects.

  3. #78
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    I too had an email from Tony along similar lines, in which he expressed an interest in my PCP Service. I sent photographs and the only schematic drawing I have, with the permission of John Walker, the creator of the PCP Service rifle.
    I look forward to any possible future developments.

    Having just seen Danny's post above, I've edited this post to say the current proposed Sterling Service rifle is NOT a PCP. It was only the fact that a couple of people mentioned my PCP Service at their stand that reignited Sterling's interest in the possibility.

  4. #79
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    John walker was indeed a very clever chap; did some great conversions. He also did a few webley pistols (to CO2). Same overlever cocking, but you just move it an inch or so.
    Always looking for any cheap, interesting, knackered "project" guns. Thanks, JB.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troubledshooter View Post
    I too had an email from Tony along similar lines, in which he expressed an interest in my PCP Service. I sent photographs and the only schematic drawing I have, with the permission of John Walker, the creator of the PCP Service rifle.
    I look forward to any possible future developments.

    Having just seen Danny's post above, I've edited this post to say the current proposed Sterling Service rifle is NOT a PCP. It was only the fact that a couple of people mentioned my PCP Service at their stand that reignited Sterling's interest in the possibility.
    Oh I see, David. So Tony was talking about your John Walker PCP! In that case my (and others') original observations still stand.
    Vintage Airguns Gallery
    ..Above link posted with permission from Gareth W-B
    In British slang an anorak is a person who has a very strong interest in niche subjects.

  6. #81
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    I am confused. Is the new Sterling Mk2 a PCP or a springer that is intended to replicate the Webley Service MK2? Can we have an authoritative response?

    Perhaps there could be a removable barrel but also a fixed barrel version, at a lower cost. Possibly, this would not be feasible as it would involve two different production models.

    The cost is the biggest factor, methinks. Those here well know the old Mk2 Service rifle but how many know this amongst the buying public? Will Sterling sell, based on its brand name, regardless of price - like a Bentley motor car?

    What is the competition, more generally? HW and Air Arms are two with splendid reputations, just for a start. Sterling wants to charge a premium but will the market tolerate it? A small number might buy but will they cover production costs and provide a return on capital? What will Sterling offer for its products that other manufacturers do not, to justify the higher prices?

    I am struggling hard to see how this adds up from a business viewpoint. Perhaps Sterling has done its sums but perhaps not. It might end up copying Webley too closely: one recalls the Mk3 was a successful rifle, selling very widely but it never made any money for the company, as far as I understand it. I would like to see Sterling making money and coming out with new and innovative products to knock the German competition.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by micky2 View Post
    l am not sure if this as been mentioned before, just had a phone call from my son who is at the NEC show. he as been talking to the guys at the Sterling arms stand and they have told him they are going to make a version of the Webley Service, but it will be made from stainless steel and with a bigger cylinder to get the power up. has anybody heard about this?.
    Yes thats right...i was at show on Sunday and had quite a chat with Tony BELLAS . I asked what they were going to do about the well known poor power output of the originals and he said they were going to try and work the foot poundage up to around tenish. Personally i thought the stainless looked very Ruger ish and feel a high quality blue or black finish would be far better. These are only work in progress models so ill be watching to see what evolves.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shed tuner View Post
    John walker was indeed a very clever chap; did some great conversions. He also did a few webley pistols (to CO2). Same overlever cocking, but you just move it an inch or so.
    He's still alive and kicking Jon, I was speaking to him on the phone half an hour ago.
    He doesn't do air pistol conversions any more, and only the occasional air rifle mainly for his own interest.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swarmboss View Post
    Yes thats right...i was at show on Sunday and had quite a chat with Tony BELLAS . I asked what they were going to do about the well known poor power output of the originals and he said they were going to try and work the foot poundage up to around tenish. Personally i thought the stainless looked very Ruger ish and feel a high quality blue or black finish would be far better. These are only work in progress models so ill be watching to see what evolves.
    Only tenish?1 In that case, I really cannot see how this project will work. Why will modern shooters buy a rifle that underperforms on power? The answer is that they will not, particularly given the price premium.

    I would like to see the business plans behind this project. Clearly, that will not be possible, so I am scratching my head, trying to work out how this is going to generate money to cover the cost of capital.

    I am cheering for Sterling but just cannot see how this is going to work from the financial perspective. I hope I am worrying unnecessarily!

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil B View Post
    I’ve been in touch with Tony Belas at Sterling, with a link to here, and with his permission, here is the response from Tony.

    “Thank you for the link which I have been reading with interest and points noted. I really appreciate your help and when I have a little more time and we have decided on which direction to go in I will post directly. The PCP Mk2 is fascinating and actually suggested at the planning phase not knowing that it had been done before. Got to say that the one in the picture is just genius .

    We went to great pains to say that the rifles were prototypes shown as such so we could get customer feedback before we start production. This seems to have been lost on the posters who seem to think the guns shown were a done deal. The interchangeable barrel thing for example, it came across loud and clear at the show that that was a feature that was wanted, no problem, we will do that but it drives up cost, probably at least £130 per barrel assembly. Yes they can have it but are they prepared to pay up to £1300 for a fully tricked rifle? Or will we have boxes of unordered spare barrels, time will tell.

    We will give it another week and then firm up some specifications and get on with making them! Please could you pass on my thanks to the BBS? Keep ‘em coming and be as critical as they like, its not an ego trip we are on it’s a business trip!

    Atb

    tony

    T Belas”

    They’re listening folks!! :-)
    Great to know they are listening on here, this is the home of serious collectors I wonder if we will see the latest proto-type at Kempton in March ?

  11. #86
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    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by andrewM View Post
    Only tenish?1 In that case, I really cannot see how this project will work. Why will modern shooters buy a rifle that underperforms on power? The answer is that they will not, particularly given the price premium.

    I would like to see the business plans behind this project. Clearly, that will not be possible, so I am scratching my head, trying to work out how this is going to generate money to cover the cost of capital.

    I am cheering for Sterling but just cannot see how this is going to work from the financial perspective. I hope I am worrying unnecessarily!
    There were two MK2 prototypes shown of the 5 made, the highest output so far was just over 10fpe, but Sterling has a target of 11+ and the rifle is unlikely to be manufactured until that goal is met - as it at least needs to compete with its contemporary's on power. It also has another trick up its sleeve, but lets not talk about that here.

    The intention is not to replicate a Webley Service MKII but to take the design on further, while not loosing its essence which is one of the most iconic and desirable airguns ever made. I have access to three originals and using these I felt that its also one of the most frustrating airguns with small design failings everywhere, the enhancement project was intended to dial those out. Someone made the point 'why would you want a replica when you can buy a original cheaper'. So the Sterling MK2 has to offer more, while retaining the desirability of the original. The Sterling MK2 is but one thread of the three airguns being initially offered, but do not think for one moment that that is the end of it, Sterling just needs to go step by step. and the mK2 is one of the first tentative steps.

    Tony Belas (business development for Sterling)

  12. #87
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    Wink

    It's great to see another UK airgun manufacturer emerging and just as importantly innovating. Tony, you have my undivided attention. Make a genuine quality product and you will get sales.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonibel View Post
    There were two MK2 prototypes shown of the 5 made, the highest output so far was just over 10fpe, but Sterling has a target of 11+ and the rifle is unlikely to be manufactured until that goal is met - as it at least needs to compete with its contemporary's on power. It also has another trick up its sleeve, but lets not talk about that here.

    The intention is not to replicate a Webley Service MKII but to take the design on further, while not loosing its essence which is one of the most iconic and desirable airguns ever made. I have access to three originals and using these I felt that its also one of the most frustrating airguns with small design failings everywhere, the enhancement project was intended to dial those out. Someone made the point 'why would you want a replica when you can buy a original cheaper'. So the Sterling MK2 has to offer more, while retaining the desirability of the original. The Sterling MK2 is but one thread of the three airguns being initially offered, but do not think for one moment that that is the end of it, Sterling just needs to go step by step. and the mK2 is one of the first tentative steps.

    Tony Belas (business development for Sterling)


    Tony, that is heartening news. As you say, tentative steps; there is no rush and far better to get this right at the start after investigating every angle. I am glad to hear you have a trick or two up your sleeve!

    I recall, by the way, visiting the Sterling factory when I was about 15, many years ago through the contacts of a good family friend, who was a pal of the owner or largest shareholder. They were most courteous and it was an exciting visit for a teenager.

    I hope you can knock 'Gerry' into a cocked hat - even although they do produce good stuff.

    A

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonibel View Post
    There were two MK2 prototypes shown of the 5 made, the highest output so far was just over 10fpe, but Sterling has a target of 11+ and the rifle is unlikely to be manufactured until that goal is met - as it at least needs to compete with its contemporary's on power. It also has another trick up its sleeve, but lets not talk about that here.

    The intention is not to replicate a Webley Service MKII but to take the design on further, while not loosing its essence which is one of the most iconic and desirable airguns ever made. I have access to three originals and using these I felt that its also one of the most frustrating airguns with small design failings everywhere, the enhancement project was intended to dial those out. Someone made the point 'why would you want a replica when you can buy a original cheaper'. So the Sterling MK2 has to offer more, while retaining the desirability of the original. The Sterling MK2 is but one thread of the three airguns being initially offered, but do not think for one moment that that is the end of it, Sterling just needs to go step by step. and the mK2 is one of the first tentative steps.

    Tony Belas (business development for Sterling)
    Well, brilliant though I think it is that you're here and discussing it at all, Tony, I'm still not convinced this particular idea is a runner. I'm the first person to appreciate the beauty of the original Webley Service design, but I suspect that airgunners like to own and shoot them because they were made in the 1930s, not for any other reason.

    I'm not sure you can go back and correct the design mistakes of the past, any more than you would take a Ford Model T, uprate the engine, brakes and suspension, and expect many people to buy one now. (Even the new BMW-made Mini bears just a token resemblance to the Issigonis Mini...).

    You mention the word iconic and desirable and I would fully agree, but mainly from a collector's point of view and in part because of the no-expense-spared construction of the original Mk2 Service (not least the fabulous peep sight, which probably alone turned this rifle into a loss maker back in the day).

    Anyway, these are just my armchair reservations, while you are the ones at the sharp end putting your hard-earned cash at risk. I genuinely wish you every success with all your creations.
    Vintage Airguns Gallery
    ..Above link posted with permission from Gareth W-B
    In British slang an anorak is a person who has a very strong interest in niche subjects.

  15. #90
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    Apr 2006
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    Hi All,

    Sterling Arms update



    As you know the guns displayed at the British shooting show were prototypes. We thank you all for the honest feedback given on the rifles..


    It has given us a great insight to see what potential customers want in a rifle!


    Since then we have looked at and amended the designs.


    In particular the design for the H-18.


    Changes from the prototype so far are trigger, trigger adjustment, stock around the trigger area, Breech block styling, silencer and cocking bolt.


    So only small changes really but nothing that changes the original concept of short, light and accurate and already beautiful rifle.

    More information will be available on Wednesday.


    But just so you guys know, the price hasn’t changed 👌



    Cheers Adam
    I wanna be the airgunbbs Model

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