Milbro SMKs?

[Phil Russell]

Overall it is a great shame that the UK (Great Britain) is losing a lot of its old established manufacturing base but this can only be down to economics. The sad fact is that the UK based companies just could not manufacture products in the UK at a competitive price. So it is no wonder that goods were bought in / manufactured elsewhere to take advantage of cheaper labour costs. Nostalgia is great but does not balance the books. Personally I have no problem with rebranding providing the quality is still there; but I accept that sometimes quality suffers in the pursuit of profit. But would I really prefer a Chinese made gun to be branded with a Chinese name such as 'TopSun' or 'Silver Moon' (I made these up but you can get my drift) rather than BSA .. no I wouldn't provided the quality could live up to the BSA name. The same applies to Turkish or any other supplier from a cheaper labour country.
What would happen if companies tried to manufacture all components in the UK? I have no doubt prices would have to rise which could lead to falling sales and eventual sell off of the company .. oh, hang on, has that not already happened, which stimulated this thread in the first place?
Cheers, Phil

[secretagentmole]

Overall it is a great shame that the UK (Great Britain) is losing a lot of its old established manufacturing base but this can only be down to economics. The sad fact is that the UK based companies just could not manufacture products in the UK at a competitive price. So it is no wonder that goods were bought in / manufactured elsewhere to take advantage of cheaper labour costs. Nostalgia is great but does not balance the books. Personally I have no problem with rebranding providing the quality is still there; but I accept that sometimes quality suffers in the pursuit of profit. But would I really prefer a Chinese made gun to be branded with a Chinese name such as 'TopSun' or 'Silver Moon' (I made these up but you can get my drift) rather than BSA .. no I wouldn't provided the quality could live up to the BSA name. The same applies to Turkish or any other supplier from a cheaper labour country.
What would happen if companies tried to manufacture all components in the UK? I have no doubt prices would have to rise which could lead to falling sales and eventual sell off of the company .. oh, hang on, has that not already happened, which stimulated this thread in the first place?
Cheers, Phil

The problem with the UK is short term profit hunger. Look at the abomination that was/is the BSA R10. The regulators were an abomination on the first series, sometimes lasting days, not even weeks? Why? They did not buy quality components for the regulator, they used a cheaper alternative, it failed! Cost them loads repairing them! Why do it? Why put fibre dowels in the cylinder blocks of Rover engines? Cheaper than metal ones! What happened to those?

[Phil Russell]

The problem with the UK is short term profit hunger. Look at the abomination that was/is the BSA R10. The regulators were an abomination on the first series, sometimes lasting days, not even weeks? Why? They did not buy quality components for the regulator, they used a cheaper alternative, it failed! Cost them loads repairing them! Why do it? Why put fibre dowels in the cylinder blocks of Rover engines? Cheaper than metal ones! What happened to those?

Well, I cannot comment as I have no experience of the R10. But it would be interesting to know what % failed as you describe and what % of income did BSA have to pay in fixing them. How much did the 'quality'component cost against the 'cheaper' alternative? How much money was spent in the repairs? I seem to recall/read that the first R10 was not very reliable but that changes were made and the latest model is good. Were the changes made to the design of components or just to the quality of the components used ... there is a difference. The same component can be made from cheap materials which are more likely to fail or to lower tolerances or can be made from higher quality materials and to a higher spec.
I am not questioning your views but would like to put the financial aspects into context against the actual R10 budget sheets if at all possible. If you are correct, and the financiers/designers at BSA got it wrong, I hope they managed to put it right. Can I see BSA knowingly market a component likely to fail? I can't. Maybe, just maybe faults appeared after market introduction / testing and point to an inadequate quality control procedure during product development.
Cheers, Phil

[SRV1]

Mmmm... I thought that Austin...Morris....British Leyland were the benchmark that other motor manufacturers aspired to. With their innovative state of the art technology, they were ahead of time, and led the field in fast acting bio-degradable motor cars......

[jumbuck]

Luke Nash who owns SMK bought the name and good will of Milbro from the Receiver. Mildenhall has long gone. Milbro pellets are made by Lanes of York for them in new moulds as the old ones were auctioned off by the same Receiver.
What's wrong with sticking an old name on an import rather than seeing an old name consigned to the history books. As Chinese airguns go, SPA makes a reasonable product to wear the Milbro name.
If the likes of AA won't make a new break barrel because of costs, there isn't much chance of SMK investing in a new range.
As for Morris 1100's, they couldn't be any worse than what British Leyland turned out.

British Leyland was no worse than what the rest of what Europe had to offer As far as Milbro, most things now are just brand names bought by someone, just look at Chinese motorcycles, AJS and Benelli to name two. There's more Italian in a Yorkshire pudding than in the modern Benelli

[gwyn]

Mmmm... I thought that Austin...Morris....British Leyland were the benchmark that other motor manufacturers aspired to. With their innovative state of the art technology, they were ahead of time, and led the field in fast acting bio-degradable motor cars......

What a load of pathetic bullshit,you are talking 40 yrs ago,there was'nt a car on the road then didnt suffer from mr rust bug!regardless of manufacture,the technology to galvanise dip bodies and panels didn't exist in those days.
So lets just knock anything UK manufactured it wasnt all roses elsewhere you know.
Take off your rose tinted glasses and come into the real world.
Some of the current imports could have been manufactured here,At A Price! but would people pay for the quality?because that would be the market place it would have to be aimed at.
Would'nt it be nice if these Milbro rifles were imported, stripped, lubed and tested?and then marketed as a quality gun?
BSA make some good looking rifles BUT are i suppose are tied into Gamo (who apart from a dabble here and there seemed to have left them alone) and its now US owners.
It is the same reason Dianna have started to badge up Chinese imports(all be it with tight quality control,? or so the say?)i own a SMK208 £99.95? cheap to play with but turning out better than expected!i also have a AAS400F a Walther Terrus and a Gamo 440. so not being biased.
Most USA stuff is a rebadge but perhaps with the launch of the US made SIG break barrel which looks pretty good the game may change,quality brand but at a higher price,i bet it sells well stateside?$499?it might be good on our market too if the price is not £499.
So if you want some quality British made rifle you will have pay,simple.

[Hsing-ee]

British Leyland was no worse than what the rest of what Europe had to offer As far as Milbro, most things now are just brand names bought by someone, just look at Chinese motorcycles, AJS and Benelli to name two. There's more Italian in a Yorkshire pudding than in the modern Benelli

It's just annoying. If the motorcycle actually had something in common then it might be quite a good idea. I would probably actually almost maybe consider buying a 'Chinese' Benelli if it was an up-date on one of the 'real' Benellis like the 650 Tornado, or the 250/4 Quattro or the 350/4. In fact they might be better finished and less rust-prone and would certainly have better electrics than the originals.

Check out the tiny 4-cylinder 250 ...

http://tanshanomi.com/benelli-250-quattro/index.html

[jumbuck]

It's just annoying. If the motorcycle actually had something in common then it might be quite a good idea. I would probably actually almost maybe consider buying a 'Chinese' Benelli if it was an up-date on one of the 'real' Benellis like the 650 Tornado, or the 250/4 Quattro or the 350/4. In fact they might be better finished and less rust-prone and would certainly have better electrics than the originals.

Check out the tiny 4-cylinder 250 ...

http://tanshanomi.com/benelli-250-quattro/index.html

Yes remember those days

[secretagentmole]

What a load of pathetic bullshit,you are talking 40 yrs ago,there was'nt a car on the road then didnt suffer from mr rust bug!regardless of manufacture,the technology to galvanise dip bodies and panels didn't exist in those days.

Scimitars did not suffer from rust! Neither did Landrover bodies! Lotus likewise were immune to the dreaded red rot....

[look no hands]

Like already said, it's down to management and the lack of it sometimes, I read once that John Bowkett was fed up with BSA who kept changing his designs to save money, that he decided to part company with them.

If Air Arms can produce a top quality rifle and sell shed loads of them, then I'm sure BSA could do the same, especially if they produced a top notch Break barrel, then I'm sure people would pay for the quality.

Pete

[junglie]

Well, I cannot comment as I have no experience of the R10. But it would be interesting to know what % failed as you describe and what % of income did BSA have to pay in fixing them. How much did the 'quality'component cost against the 'cheaper' alternative? How much money was spent in the repairs? I seem to recall/read that the first R10 was not very reliable but that changes were made and the latest model is good. Were the changes made to the design of components or just to the quality of the components used ... there is a difference. The same component can be made from cheap materials which are more likely to fail or to lower tolerances or can be made from higher quality materials and to a higher spec.
I am not questioning your views but would like to put the financial aspects into context against the actual R10 budget sheets if at all possible. If you are correct, and the financiers/designers at BSA got it wrong, I hope they managed to put it right. Can I see BSA knowingly market a component likely to fail? I can't. Maybe, just maybe faults appeared after market introduction / testing and point to an inadequate quality control procedure during product development.
Cheers, Phil

well the mk 1 i bought my son went back twice to be fixed, so including the original build they had three goes at getting it right & it still was only grouping decently with ftt's & low on power & variable fps.It went to JB in the end & has been faultless ever since.Funnily with the cost of the blueprint it worked out at exactly the price of a mk2 as the price jumped up for those. You pay peanuts you get monkeys & god knows what monkeys tried to sort that one out! I forgot to add jb had to re barrel it as well which he did for no extra charge to get good groups with a selection of quality pellets. It is a .22 btw.

[Hsing-ee]

If Air Arms can produce a top quality rifle and sell shed loads of them, then I'm sure BSA could do the same, especially if they produced a top notch Break barrel, then I'm sure people would pay for the quality.

Pete

I think you have nailed it there. If they had the self-confidence or the vision, then they could use their OWN badge and reputation to sell their stuff instead of using Peaky Blinders.

If BSA made a (dare I say it) HW99S-sized break-barrel to the same quality as the TX200 it would definitely sell. Look at all the patriotic Britishers on here who would love such a thing, and if they did it right they could biff the HW99 and 95 out of the UK market and further afield as well. BSA barrels are flippin' awesome, cannot believe the groups my unregged old Scorpion can shoot. I think it should be called the 'BSA Lincoln', after the Lincoln-Jefferies that started it all for BSA, but also because it is a British bomber and BSA likes its aerospace names. It sounds exceedingly English and also patriotically American at the same time. Made in The Brum of course.

[TonyL]

Like already said, it's down to management and the lack of it sometimes, I read once that John Bowkett was fed up with BSA who kept changing his designs to save money, that he decided to part company with them.

If Air Arms can produce a top quality rifle and sell shed loads of them, then I'm sure BSA could do the same, especially if they produced a top notch Break barrel, then I'm sure people would pay for the quality.

Pete

At least we can be thankful that many of the BSAs are designed and built in Blighty. As far as I'm aware, the PCPs are made in Birmingham and did production of the Lightning get moved back too?

And if someone there with a little passion and pride could get the bean counters to commit to that top-end springer, the heritage, rich history and (still) high regard globally for BSA would surely find plenty of customers?

[TonyL]

I think you have nailed it there. If they had the self-confidence or the vision, then they could use their OWN badge and reputation to sell their stuff instead of using Peaky Blinders.

If BSA made a (dare I say it) HW99S-sized break-barrel to the same quality as the TX200 it would definitely sell. Look at all the patriotic Britishers on here who would love such a thing, and if they did it right they could biff the HW99 and 95 out of the UK market and further afield as well. BSA barrels are flippin' awesome, cannot believe the groups my unregged old Scorpion can shoot. I think it should be called the 'BSA Lincoln', after the Lincoln-Jefferies that started it all for BSA, but also because it is a British bomber and BSA likes its aerospace names. It sounds exceedingly English and also patriotically American at the same time. Made in The Brum of course.

Yes.

And these days, surely it wouldn't be too difficult to scrutinise the competition, give it a little tweak here and there, stamp your own identity on it and job done?

I know that's a somewhat over-simplified romantic view, and economics would be the deciding factor, but we can have our dreams.......

[junglie]

Like already said, it's down to management and the lack of it sometimes, I read once that John Bowkett was fed up with BSA who kept changing his designs to save money, that he decided to part company with them.

If Air Arms can produce a top quality rifle and sell shed loads of them, then I'm sure BSA could do the same, especially if they produced a top notch Break barrel, then I'm sure people would pay for the quality.

Pete

They did with the challenger mercury thats why we have them! shame they didn't just keep making them & kept the QC up.