Best Webley and BSA from 1980 onwards?

[andrewM]

Here is a question that will stimulate collectors' thoughts, methinks.

What is the best break-barrel and underlever Webley and BSA, made in the UK (before production was outsourced to Turkey and Spain), from the '80s onwards?

Why did I choose 1980? Because BSA and Webley by then knew they had to compete with the German manufacturers if they were to survive and they knew they were up against serious rivals.

Is there a break-barrel and an underlever from both these British brands that could compete with the German equivalents, even although the British manufacturers had by then lost 'first mover' advantage and were following the competition?

This is a difficult question but I wonder if a pattern of agreement might emerge.

Factors in this question might include accuracy, power, trigger, reliability, handling and open sights. Between these two British makes, are there any models that will be seriously remembered in, say, 25 years time? Will they still be in use, rather as some German models remain in use today and are favoured by some collectors?

[Gareth W-B]

.
Even though I love the nostalgic romance of the Webley Vulcan family tree, for me, the Webley top slot just has to be held open for the Birmingham built Longbow in either of the two main cals, and is closely followed by the wonderful Webley Omega (again, in either of the two main cals), although do please note, that here, imho, there is hardly a cigarette paper between them.

BSA-wise, for me, No.1 is the lovely Mercury 'S' MK.II in .22, and number two, any of the RB-2 derrivatives (Superstar, Stutzen or Airsporter) in .22, too (imo BSA have never made a 'nice to shoot' .177 springer ) ... My old .25 BSA Magnum rifle was also a joy to shoot out to 25 yards, but beyond that, it struggled to entertain, so comes in as my BSA number three.

[Hsing-ee]

The BEST BSA springer by a long way is the BSA Superstar. That is the SUPERSTAR not the Super Sport. It has a good trigger, powerplant, and a fixed barrel with direct loading. Nice stock and lighter than a HW77.

The best Webley break-barrel is either the Omega or the Tomahawk, depending on who you talk to. Probably the Tomahawk as it has alot of Venom input, while the Omega is a 'lets steal the best ideas from the all the best German guns we can find in the back of 'the Airgun World'.

[Geezer]

Sticking to standard models, though remembering that Webley for a few years had Venom in-house and made factory Venom specials:

1. Webley Longbow.
2. Webley Tomahawk, ideally later factory short-stroke with 13" LW barrel.
3. Webley Omega.

Ranking gets quite hard after that, but I'll try, recognising that this gets very subjective:

4. BSA Superstar.
5. Webley Stingray.
6. Webley Xocet.
7. BSA Gold Star.
8. Birmingham early BSA Supersport.
9. BSA Mercury Challenger.
10. BSA Airsporter RB2.
11. Everything else, with an honourable mention for the Webley Tracker and Viscount Deluxe for looking nice and handling well despite mediocre performance.

The best British break-barrel springers made were the Longbow and the Tomahawk (just 20 years too late). By far.

The best non-AA underlever was the Superstar (just didn't quite beat the HW77, and was a couple of years late).

Best sidelever was the refined AA Khamsin or Camargue, but they cost a lot more than any HW, or an FWB Sport, while not performing better (nice looks though).

The worst British serious springer was the early Sterling HR83, with all of the negatives of the cheaper HR-81, a higher price tag, and a trigger mechanism even more prone to self-destruct.

[Gareth W-B]

The BEST BSA springer by a long way is the BSA Superstar. That is the SUPERSTAR not the Super Sport. It has a good trigger, powerplant, and a fixed barrel with direct loading. Nice stock and lighter than a HW77.

The best Webley break-barrel is either the Omega or the Tomahawk, depending on who you talk to. Probably the Tomahawk as it has alot of Venom input, while the Omega is a 'lets steal the best ideas from the all the best German guns we can find in the back of 'the Airgun World'.

Hmmmm. For me, the Tomahawk is too droopy and slow on its lock time and has too much long stroke travel before the punch for a sub 12ft.lb air rifle (imho that is), which is probably why after only 18 months as a production run rifle it was scrapped by Webley for the similarly styled short stroked Longbow?

[Hsing-ee]

Hmmmm. For me, the Tomahawk is too droopy and slow on its lock time and has too much long stroke travel before the punch for a sub 12ft.lb air rifle (imho that is), which is probably why after only 18 months as a production run rifle it was scrapped by Webley for the similarly styled short stroked Longbow?

I am ashamed to say that I am not that au fait with the late models of Webley, so I stand corrected.

Also in terms of actual erm 'springer sexiness' the Mercury-S is in fact the best BSA springer as you intuitively suggest. It simply cannot perform as well as the SuperStar. Although if you wanted a high performance springer you would actually go for an HW77 not a SuperStar, and if you wanted a really 'BSA-esque' BSA then you would go for the Mercury-S. And if you wanted top performance you would go for a PCP so that's the HW77 out of the game too. The heavyweight bull barrel is so cool on the BSA Mercury-S, and the stock in walnut is a peach as well. Such an elegant rifle, should not have sold mine!

[Geezer]

Hmmmm. For me, the Tomahawk is too droopy and slow on its lock time and has too much long stroke travel before the punch for a sub 12ft.lb air rifle (imho that is), which is probably why after only 18 months as a production run rifle it was scrapped by Webley for the similarly styled short stroked Longbow?

I think they ran in parallel (Tomahawk from 2000, Longbow from 2002), with Webley increasingly pushing the Longbow to the UK market, and the Tommie to the US, until Webley folded in 2006.

I'm a big Tommie fan, as well as a Longbow one. My Tommie is an early medium-stroke soft-spring 12 ft-lbs (there was an FAC long-stroke and later the factory 12 ft-lbs short stroke) variant with the 15" Webley barrel, not the later 13" LW barrel shared with the Longbow.The handling and balance are sublime, and even if the inefficient and slow shot-cycle is reminiscent of a 12 ft-lbs Diana 48/52, it is still blisteringly accurate. Maybe a case (like HW80s) where the inefficiency of the 12 ft-lbs power plant is compensated for by the stock, weight, and trigger.

Omegas are very nice and I like them. But the FWB Sport (apart from long-term hard-use longevity of the breech lock-up, and poor safety catch) is just a bit better. If the Omega had come out in 1979, at a competitive price, Webley would maybe still be in business and still selling an evolved Omega. But it came out in late 84/early 85, against the well-established 80 and the new 77.

[andrewM]

Very interesting comments so far, which are much closer in opinion than I expected. It seems, if I am not mistaken, that the favoured rifle between both makes is the Webley Longbow, based on the comments received. Adding a further question, can this particular design hold its own amongst the German break-barrels and, perhaps, even the fixed barrels?

Closely behind, it seems to be the Tomahawk and Omega, perhaps in second equal place.

In the BSA corner, we have plenty of support for the Superstar and, interestingly, the Mercury 'S' MK.II - perhaps because the latter is so typically BSA, with a ring of nostalgia to it. It appears, however, that opinion prefers the Webley Longbow to the Superstar - so far!

These views suggest that the above will all be favoured by collectors in 25 years time - when some of us might be in another sphere.

[hwtyger]

Tomahawks were initially designed for FAC levels. Thats why they were sluggish in 12Ftp. You shouldnt have them in 12Ftp unless shortstroked
Best Webley: Longbow/Stingray. Allthough I like Tommy looks better.
No experience with Omega allthough they have a very good rep
The Patriot was/is an icon too, allthough cant call it 'best'

[gingernut]

I agree about the Superstar.

But I have a friend who calls it " Your Gamo "

[Hsing-ee]

I agree about the Superstar.

But I have a friend who calls it " Your Gamo "

Pity the fool.

[I. J.]

Webley Omega.
Webley Longbow.
BSA Superstar.

[les allam]

Webley's best from 1980 onwards.
Tomahawk
Longbow
Omega.
Bsa's best
Superstar
Goldstar.
Les

[Shed tuner]

The factory short stroked Tommy was great, but the long strokes were a bit too lazy. I also really like the smaller Webley - the Xocet I think it was - still near full power and light and easy enough to shoot.

And defo the RB2s were the best of BSA - Superstar first then Airsporter. Goldstar didn't really do it for me, but it wasn't bad. Any of the Mercs with a breach bolt (not pin) were fine, but somewhat nondescript; I'd much rather have an equivalent webley.

In my own collection, all I have from the above is the RB2 airsporter - sold my superstar ages ago. The carbine in .177 is the one to have, and is on my "buy when a cheap one comes up..." list. As is the Omega / Exocet...

[SRV1]

Superstar
Mercury S
Mercury Challenger
Omega
Airsporter RB2