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Thread: let's talk about accuracy

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry D View Post
    I guess time will tell, but I am genuinely always willing to learn from those who can do what I can't.

    On a broader level, I've made similar invitations to those who claim to hunt at extreme ranges with sub-12 rifles. I've also had strong criticism, along the lines of, 'just because you can't do it, it doesn't mean I can't', when I've stated that my personal hunting range limit is 45 yards, and then ONLY under perfect conditions. For 'perfect', read not a breath of wind, rested rifle, range known to the inch and me on top form. In most of my hunting, 35 yards is the max, and even that will drop as the wind rises or becomes less predictable. To date, no one has accepted my invitation to show me how they reliably take rabbits, pigeons and corvids at 50, 60, 70 yards, and even beyond. The key term, here, is 'reliably'. I'm not talking about some irresponsible fluke you paced out, once. This is about repeatable accuracy, first time, under hunting conditions.

    That offer stands and it's open to anyone, with rangefinders and any stance permitted. As stated, this is a genuine offer, with no 'side' or hidden agenda. If you can do it, I'd love to see how.

    Regards.
    Sorry Terry I deleted my post as i thought it was not right . but I should have left it .

    yes its funny how the people that make these claims are not banging down your door to show you their Chris Kyle skills.

    If they are that good then why are they not taking part and winning all the competitions ?

    I remember seeing a post on here about a Youtube channel that pulls off long range kills on rabbits yet they are not that great at the shooting comps (the posters words ,not mine ).

  2. #17
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    I never expected my post would upset so many people. Please don't get upset when someone says they are better.

    All my good shots were made either on a sandbag or a bidpod off a bench.

    My point in the original post was, modern PCPs are far more precise and accurate than the shooters.
    With a good rest and in good condition (calm weather or indoor range, without any competition strss), they should be able to go through the same hole @35 yards.
    Of course the correct pellet has to be found to achieve that.

    As to why I'm not doing competition is becuse 1. They dont' allow me to shoot off a sandbag on a bench. 2. I don't think shooting is a proper career (don't get me wrong, shooting is perfect hobby). How many years can you shoot in competitions? You probably will retire in the mid-thirties. What do you do after that? Getting upset like some other do here when someone says they can do better groups?

    I love shooting as much as most of your guys out there but I still will laugh when someone says it's a good gun cos they can do 5p group at 30 yards.
    Last edited by bobby822; 18-03-2018 at 04:46 PM.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry D View Post
    As ever, all constructive suggestions gratefully received.
    Regreattably unless the gun was tied to a robotic rig under lab conditions any other suggestion would be futile. The present regime of testing/reviewing is not exactly ' scientific ' but it does provide a reasonable measure of a gun's capability. What concerns me though, is that on many occasions a gun given a good review was shown to be full of ' teething ' problems in the hands of the public, the FX impact sub 12, Kral Puncher Breaker, HW 110 amongst many others. I am by no means suggesting that the review was intentionally favourable but the practice of assigning a few select guns for reviews by the manufacturer does raise questions. Again I say that any information is gratefully recieved and is better than no information.

    A.G

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hsing-ee View Post
    Bigger. Louder. Real. Nonsense.

    I think the only thing you are hitting consistently is the ANNOYING TROLL button. The grammatical mistakes and spelling mistakes are even the same as those that the political trolls use.

    No-one with any claim to being a rifleman will believe your stories of groups with zero dispersion, partly through experience and partly because if the bench-rest brigade cannot achieve them, then some geezer with a Weihrauch HW100 and an arrogant attitude is not going to be able to.

    You have succeeded in your mission, which presumably was to get everyone worked up at your 'Baron Munchausen's Narrative of Marvellous Accuracy and Marksmanship'. Congratulations.



    I feel this may be of use to the amazing marksman we have in our midst

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by lensman57 View Post
    Regreattably unless the gun was tied to a robotic rig under lab conditions any other suggestion would be futile. The present regime of testing/reviewing is not exactly ' scientific ' but it does provide a reasonable measure of a gun's capability. What concerns me though, is that on many occasions a gun given a good review was shown to be full of ' teething ' problems in the hands of the public, the FX impact sub 12, Kral Puncher Breaker, HW 110 amongst many others. I am by no means suggesting that the review was intentionally favourable but the practice of assigning a few select guns for reviews by the manufacturer does raise questions. Again I say that any information is gratefully recieved and is better than no information.

    A.G
    can't agree more

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by lensman57 View Post
    ... the practice of assigning a few select guns for reviews by the manufacturer does raise questions.
    You can choose to accept this or not, AG, but I have never known this to be the case. I test most of the new guns and I've toured many factories many times, but I've never known there to be a batch of guns specifically assigned for testing. It sounds like it should happen, but in my experience, it doesn't. Just saying.
    If you don't know enough to judge - don't judge

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by lensman57 View Post
    Again I say that any information is gratefully recieved and is better than no information.

    A.G
    Let's see what 'information' is provided, then.

    First, the basics, weight, length, shots per charge, charging pressure, price, options, contacts, stock type, energy, variation, plus a few other bits.

    Then I go through the rifle's notable features, detailing my thoughts on each and usually its contribution to overall performance. I also do my best to provide as much background detail as possible about the rifle's development.

    Then I shoot it as much as I can, usually under varying conditions, to see how it handles the sort of things that will be thrown at it during long-term use. I then select the best conditions under which to carry out my accuracy and pellet selection tests, and give the results of these.

    Then I give my overall thoughts, and usually those of other shooters I consult, either at my club or during arranged meetings with those whose abilities I respect and trust. I also endure chrono sessions, and do my best to reproduce the type of shooting the user will do in the hunting field, by shooting a couple of pellets, then leaving the rifle to settle for a while before shooting it again.

    That's the initial test, which is backed by a follow-up test, after I've had the rifle for another month, during which I shoot it as much as I can to see if it, or my thoughts, change. I usually finish with a few tips intended to help the user get as much as possible from the rifle. Remember, too, my tests are constructed to provide the information our readers ask for. It's their magazine and I do my best to give them what they want.

    There's more, but my point is, a tremendous amount of time, effort and experience goes into these tests, much of it conducted outside work hours, and I have to say I think it's unfair to dismiss it all with your 'better than nothing' verdict. No, I don't have a robot or an atmospherically-sealed range, but I know enough to pick my conditions and I'm still good enough to get a representative performance out of a sporting airgun, and write up my findings in a useful way. Yes, AG, I'm satisfied that I offer a whole lot more than 'better than nothing'.

    Regards.
    If you don't know enough to judge - don't judge

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobby822 View Post
    I never expected my post would upset so many people. Please don't get upset when someone says they are better.

    All my good shots were made either on a sandbag or a bidpod off a bench.

    My point in the original post was, modern PCPs are far more precise and accurate than the shooters.
    With a good rest and in good condition (calm weather or indoor range, without any competition strss), they should be able to go through the same hole @35 yards.
    Of course the correct pellet has to be found to achieve that.

    As to why I'm not doing competition is becuse 1. They dont' allow me to shoot off a sandbag on a bench. 2. I don't think shooting is a proper career (don't get me wrong, shooting is perfect hobby). How many years can you shoot in competitions? You probably will retire in the mid-thirties. What do you do after that? Getting upset like some other do here when someone says they can do better groups?

    I love shooting as much as most of your guys out there but I still will laugh when someone says it's a good gun cos they can do 5p group at 30 yards.
    What an arrogant and condescending poster you are to take such a stance that you are sooooo good, and the majority of us are just rubbish? If you are such a great shot with great guns then good for you, but to come on here and openly slate everyone else in such a manner is contemptuous. We have to have a "rough guide" as to what is acceptable, and a 5p hit consistently at 30m is a decent gauge of a rifles and shooters capabilities for the most part. I could post dozens of one hole groups just larger than a .22 pellet made by a .177 when I've been pellet testing - and I have - but not on one single occasion did I have the gall to spout the holier than thou BS you have retched. Humble, compassionate or thoughtful you most definitely are not, your more to be pitied than scolded.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry D View Post
    Let's see what 'information' is provided, then.

    First, the basics, weight, length, shots per charge, charging pressure, price, options, contacts, stock type, energy, variation, plus a few other bits.

    Then I go through the rifle's notable features, detailing my thoughts on each and usually its contribution to overall performance. I also do my best to provide as much background detail as possible about the rifle's development.

    Then I shoot it as much as I can, usually under varying conditions, to see how it handles the sort of things that will be thrown at it during long-term use. I then select the best conditions under which to carry out my accuracy and pellet selection tests, and give the results of these.

    Then I give my overall thoughts, and usually those of other shooters I consult, either at my club or during arranged meetings with those whose abilities I respect and trust. I also endure chrono sessions, and do my best to reproduce the type of shooting the user will do in the hunting field, by shooting a couple of pellets, then leaving the rifle to settle for a while before shooting it again.

    That's the initial test, which is backed by a follow-up test, after I've had the rifle for another month, during which I shoot it as much as I can to see if it, or my thoughts, change. I usually finish with a few tips intended to help the user get as much as possible from the rifle. Remember, too, my tests are constructed to provide the information our readers ask for. It's their magazine and I do my best to give them what they want.

    There's more, but my point is, a tremendous amount of time, effort and experience goes into these tests, much of it conducted outside work hours, and I have to say I think it's unfair to dismiss it all with your 'better than nothing' verdict. No, I don't have a robot or an atmospherically-sealed range, but I know enough to pick my conditions and I'm still good enough to get a representative performance out of a sporting airgun, and write up my findings in a useful way. Yes, AG, I'm satisfied that I offer a whole lot more than 'better than nothing'.

    Regards.
    I think you do a great job Terry, and the vast majority of people who read your articles think the same, the issues arise with individual guns giving individual results, with no two being the same, so anyone who got one which was not up to par then condemns every one of those guns to the "junk" category, which we all know is unfair, but have probably all thought it at one time or another, even if we don't actively do it A tester can only write about their experience with that gun, and hopefully be diplomatic, but acknowledge all attributes of the gun, good and bad. I would say it's far less representative of a gun to have a bad review than a good review, because there are far more trouble free guns than ones with issues.

    James
    Making a mockery of growing old gracefully since I retired

  9. #24
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    Hsing-ee is offline may also be employed in conjunction with a drawn reciprocation dingle arm, to reduce sinusoidal repleneration
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobby822 View Post
    I never expected my post would upset so many people. Please don't get upset when someone says they are better.

    As to why I'm not doing competition is becuse 1. They dont' allow me to shoot off a sandbag on a bench. 2. I don't think shooting is a proper career (don't get me wrong, shooting is perfect hobby). How many years can you shoot in competitions? You probably will retire in the mid-thirties. What do you do after that? Getting upset like some other do here when someone says they can do better groups?

    I love shooting as much as most of your guys out there but I still will laugh when someone says it's a good gun cos they can do 5p group at 30 yards.
    You don't think shooting is a proper 'career'? No-one shoots competitive air-rifle 'as a career'. What crazy world do you live in that you think that people shoot FT and HFT as a profession, like soccer players? Although if they did, then they would all have to retire when you entered the field.

    Terry Doe started a career in journalism and publishing out of competition shooting, and others got careers in engineering out of it e.g. the Welhams, or in sales, but no-one does it as a career. You seem to be ill-informed on multiple facets of the sport.

    You seen to stand somewhere between Donald Trump and Walther Mitty on the fanciful nonsense scale and this will remain the case unless you take up Terry Doe's offer to allow you to display your supernatural skills with the air-rifle.

    You aren't confusing feet with yards are you?

    Definition of a Walt "an ordinary often ineffectual person who indulges in fantastic daydreams of personal triumphs".
    Last edited by Hsing-ee; 18-03-2018 at 07:42 PM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesim1 View Post
    What an arrogant and condescending poster you are to take such a stance that you are sooooo good, and the majority of us are just rubbish? If you are such a great shot with great guns then good for you, but to come on here and openly slate everyone else in such a manner is contemptuous. We have to have a "rough guide" as to what is acceptable, and a 5p hit consistently at 30m is a decent gauge of a rifles and shooters capabilities for the most part. I could post dozens of one hole groups just larger than a .22 pellet made by a .177 when I've been pellet testing - and I have - but not on one single occasion did I have the gall to spout the holier than thou BS you have retched. Humble, compassionate or thoughtful you most definitely are not, your more to be pitied than scolded.
    James
    This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    I can vouch for those groups .
    We have all pulled off the odd fluke either intentionally or not , but there is something special about stalking your quarry to 30 yards .
    My shooting buddy once stalked a rabbit for over 20 minutes , just as he took aim , a dog appeared out of nowhere and began sniffing his backside !
    All that work getting to within 30 yards despite having a couple of chances from further out , to be ruined by a dog .
    He couldn't shoot for laughing .

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry D View Post
    I guess time will tell, but I am genuinely always willing to learn from those who can do what I can't.

    On a broader level, I've made similar invitations to those who claim to hunt at extreme ranges with sub-12 rifles. I've also had strong criticism, along the lines of, 'just because you can't do it, it doesn't mean I can't', when I've stated that my personal hunting range limit is 45 yards, and then ONLY under perfect conditions. For 'perfect', read not a breath of wind, rested rifle, range known to the inch and me on top form. In most of my hunting, 35 yards is the max, and even that will drop as the wind rises or becomes less predictable. To date, no one has accepted my invitation to show me how they reliably take rabbits, pigeons and corvids at 50, 60, 70 yards, and even beyond. The key term, here, is 'reliably'. I'm not talking about some irresponsible fluke you paced out, once. This is about repeatable accuracy, first time, under hunting conditions.

    That offer stands and it's open to anyone, with rangefinders and any stance permitted. As stated, this is a genuine offer, with no 'side' or hidden agenda. If you can do it, I'd love to see how.

    Regards.
    Hey Terry Im pretty sure you know one of my good mates who comes out hunting with me now and again
    You would be more than welcome to come for a hunt maybe when our mate is over
    I shoot long range sub 12 and it all ties in with what you have stated
    Open invite

  12. #27
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    I've not read the whole thread, it went a bit awry... however here's my take...

    The most accurate guns I have will shoot around 2-3mm c-c 5 shots groups at 20 yards, rested, indoors. With 10 shots, more like 3-4mm.
    Take that setup outside, but with no discernable breeze, and i'm more like 7mm at 30 yards. Add in field conditions, resting on a log not a bench, faint breeze, and it's closer to 1/2" (12mm).
    Now allow for ranging errors, and an effective KZ diameter on most quarry of around 20mm, it's easy to get 35 yards as a reliable max. Maybe 40 if the range is lasered.

    So simple as that really. If I need to get say 10/10 shots in a 20mm KZ outdoors, resting on a tree / log / stump / bipod at a range I'm pretty confident at, it's 35-40 yards max.

    Back in the old days when I shot HFT to a farily decent standard, the 45 yarders were always missable, even when you basically knew the range ('cos it was the max), and they had a huge 40mm KZ. And then you had all the time in the world, with a static target.
    Always looking for any cheap, interesting, knackered "project" guns. Thanks, JB.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobby822 View Post
    I never expected my post would upset so many people. Please don't get upset when someone says they are better.
    Bobby, please take this in a constructive way, because I suspect something is being lost in translation, here.

    May I ask if English is your first language? Again, I'm not being sarcastic, it's a genuine question.

    Regards.
    If you don't know enough to judge - don't judge

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry D View Post
    Well, that's most of us told, then!

    I've obviously been merely playing at this sport of ours over the years, because a 5p-size group at 30 yards is perfectly acceptable to me, especially on an outdoor range. I've produced many of the famed 'single-holers' at ranges up to 55 yards over the years, but many things must come together for this to happen.

    Bobby, if you really can hit tiny spinners at 70 yards with any degree of regularity under hunting conditions, I'd genuinely like to do a feature on you and your techniques. If you PM me on here, we can get something organised.

    Regards.
    Hi Terry ,whats the betting he declines your kind offer, for me 5p size groupings
    at 25/30 yds are perfectly good for ensuring humane shooting of pests
    which is what i want to achieve, hft marksman i will never be as long as
    i can accurately shoot dead my prey ethicaly & humanely that will do for me!!!!
    atb brian

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrGrumpy View Post
    Hey Terry Im pretty sure you know one of my good mates who comes out hunting with me now and again
    You would be more than welcome to come for a hunt maybe when our mate is over
    I shoot long range sub 12 and it all ties in with what you have stated
    Open invite
    Thanks for the invitation, Mr G, although I don't quite understand your statement. Are you saying you can achieve hunting standard accuracy at extreme range, under hunting conditions? Do help a confused fellow.
    If you don't know enough to judge - don't judge

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