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Thread: let's talk about accuracy

  1. #61
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    I'm just happy if I hit the cardboard square near the middle of it.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by noz1 View Post
    I seem to remember a while ago a post from someone who could hit crows in the head at 80 yards. When challenged to do this, for a decent wager, as I recall, that was the end of the matter. As far as I am concerned, posts such as this should never make it to the forum.
    People forget that the airgun section can be found on google searches and claims of 80 yard pot shots with an airgun is a smoking gun for reporters .

    Don't give them fuel or we will all get burnt

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by LESS THAN FORTUITOUS KENNETH View Post
    What hold do you use?
    I may be gripping too tight.
    Last edited by TRS1; 19-03-2018 at 06:23 PM.

  4. #64
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    Mind ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ballisticboy View Post
    To start with you are not actually talking about accuracy here. Group size is a measure of dispersion, not accuracy, and the two are not the same. By definition (not my definition but the internationally agreed definition) accuracy is the distance of the group centre from the aim point, not the group size. The two are defined differently to distinguish between the effects of deterministic errors ( range errors, average wind speed errors, aiming errors etc.) and non deterministic errors (pellet yaw, muzzle velocity error, wind variability etc.), the latter largly determining group size and the former determining accuracy.
    For hunting you need a combination of accuracy and small dispersion to produce precision and a high degree of first round effectiveness. A 5p group of 10 pellets around the aimpoint, fired under all conditions at 30 yards, or any other unknown range, is perfectly acceptable if it can be repeated on three different occasions under different atmospheric conditions.
    Would you mind filling in my tax returns please . as if you cannot baffle em , nobody can . well done that man ??? HOLLY

    PS what we need in air gun articles , is what nick jenkinson used to do . show us real world groups at various ranges , out doors . benched . say 25 , 35 . 45 and 55 yards . with the best pellets the reviewer can find in that rifle . not acceptable accuracy . or very good . seeing is believing .
    " BE YOURSELF , EVERYBODY ELSE IS TAKEN "

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by scimitar View Post
    Would you mind filling in my tax returns please . as if you cannot baffle em , nobody can . well done that man ??? HOLLY

    PS what we need in air gun articles , is what nick jenkinson used to do . show us real world groups at various ranges , out doors . benched . say 25 , 35 . 45 and 55 yards . with the best pellets the reviewer can find in that rifle . not acceptable accuracy . or very good . seeing is believing .
    You might like the HW57 review I'm working on at the moment
    8 to 55 yards, outdoors, mix of HFT prone and bench rested

  6. #66
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    I have grouped shots sub-5p at 45 yards, outdoors, in "windless" conditions with my HFT 500, my Daystate Mk3 AND my TX200! In fact the 4 shot group I currently brag about measures 8mm edge to edge in one dimension, 3mm in the other (Mk3) However ...

    Those groups come after an inordinate amount of practice, pellet search and selection, and determining the best cleaning regime for the particular gun and pellet combination. I'd be shooting prone, rested on a hand which is grasping a peg, as per HFT. However ...

    Whilst those groups really look great, we'd be ignoring the 5, 10 or 20 other sets I tried in that session that didn't group so well.

    So yes, I can be a hot shot - under perfect conditions. But throw in a competition course set by cunning course-setters who know about range traps and add on a frisky wind, and my scores start heading south PDQ. And as someone else pointed out, as many people have over the years, finding a good scope that suits your eyes (allied to good eyesight) is almost as important as selecting the right pellets.

    Other than that ... stop beating up the poor O.P.

    And yes, if he's that good, by all means let Terry do an article on him.
    AA TX200, HFT 500, AS400 .22
    Daystate Grand Prix & Mk3
    Parker-Hale/PAX Phoenix Mk2: .22 & .177

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRS1 View Post
    I may be gripping too tight.
    Yeah. You really need to let it have it's head.

  8. #68
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    I think that most of us who have been shooting air power for a considerable amount of time would agree that it is far easier to nail a target with a PCP than it is with a springer. I suppose because I associate myself with other regular and keen shots that I am used to seeing examples of very good shooting on a regular basis. As such, the descriptions provided in magazines of the levels of accuracy available are totally believable, and I think it is unfair for some readers to presume that findings are in any way fabricated.
    Terry Doe for example was (and probably still is) an excellent former champion shot who is more than capable of producing genuine single pellet hole sized groups at long range when given the equipment and putting his mind to it. In my opinion, it is unfair for anybody to doubt his honesty and integrity.

    Maybe due to a lack of experience, the original poster has failed to understand that many shooters are capable of producing amazing levels of accuracy, they just dont go on about it. Shooting long range live targets is not something that those more experienced shooters consider or practice. The reason for this is that due to risk of wounding, it is inhumane to "risk" a shot when the experienced shot will just try to get closer to the target.

    The best place for anybody to prove to themselves that they can cut it regarding their own perceived level of accuracy is in competition. Only then will you experience just how far off what you considered your own expert levels of accuracy are compared to what is achievable by true marksmen. Unfortunately for most of us, this will be a long way off what is achievable by competition winners. Its not about risking the odd long range shot at a living creature, it is all about being aware of your own limitations and appreciating that being honest about your own capabilities will mean that long range shooting at living creatures is unsporting and cruel.

    Sorry to sound like somebody telling us all what we already know, but it appears that some members need advising of the unwritten agreement that most of us subscribe to, namely that of leaving long range 45 yard plus targets to FAC airgun or rimfire users.

    Andy
    Member, the Feinwerkbau Sport appreciation Society (over 50's chapter)
    http://www.rivington-riflemen.eu/ Andy, from the North !

  9. #69
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    i think the original poster should have named it PRECISION not accuracy and this discussion would have been clearer. I see he mentioned that this is about PCPs and group sizes.

    Basically if one clamped down the gun in a vise and the group size produced would be proportional to the precision of the said gun with that pellet combination used only. With the shooter ruled out - completely. Gun and ammo and nothing else. Shot indoors of course. No scope mounted at all.

    we dont talk accuracy, which has more to do with the parallax error, shooter or the scope setup, wind etc etc

    he is after inherent precision of the said pieces or different models of PCP. he knows how to tell a good one from a rubbish exemplar.


    if you have a gun which would not group, out of 20 lets say 3-5 shot groups you can have few great very small groups (if you are lucky this is just statistics) and publish it everywhere on the web, dont forget to put your name next to it and the guns model/make.

    BUTt if you have a good gun with excellent precision, that will be very good competition gun. Will hit the bullseye again and again repeatedly when the shooter does his part. Shoot 10 or more shot groups that is the right measure of precision.

    a pcp should group a lot tighter than the target size at the set distance, or there is no point using it to measure the shooters capabilities. thats what competions are about or? Correct me if I am wrong.

    Are the competitions about manufacturers models/makes these days or is it about the shot? Do guns get medals? but thats another discussion/story

    I have to agree, the reviewers these days shoot some terrible groups and they point at the target stating, thats excellent. complete BS

    my advice, after some bad personal experience:
    if you acquire a new gun, clamp her down, do some pellet testing like that with quality brands - i know not exciting and all that, but if you cant find a decent pellet to group very tight, return the gun to the shop for a swap or money back.
    Last edited by krisko; 20-03-2018 at 07:11 AM.

  10. #70
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    I'm surprised the original post has baited so many folk.
    We all know what modern air rifles are capable of when set up correctly, fed the correct diet, and shot from a rest under perfect conditions.
    We all also know how that translates in the field with many other variables thrown into the mix, the biggest, as RW says, the shooter himself.
    All my rifles are zeroed on a marked out range at varying distances and holdover / holdover recorded and tested until I find the pellet that groups most consistently.
    I've never yet shot a group on any live quarry though.
    B.A.S.C. member

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by scimitar View Post
    PS what we need in air gun articles , is what nick jenkinson used to do . show us real world groups at various ranges , out doors . benched . say 25 , 35 . 45 and 55 yards . with the best pellets the reviewer can find in that rifle . not acceptable accuracy . or very good . seeing is believing .
    There are two main problems with this, as I found out over 30 years of testing. First, timing my work schedule to coincide with acceptable wind conditions out to 55 yards is impossible. Nick's range was accessible in seconds and his committments were a lot more flexible than mine, so as soon as it looked 'right' for a grouping session, he was there. For much of the last couple of years, I've considered myself lucky to have dry conditions, let alone still ones. There's a covered range at my club, but only out to 25 yards, so since my hi-tech chicken ched was condemned, I'm struggling for fully-sheltered range facilities out to 55. Thus, the good groups I put together in the wind rely too much on my ability to apply correct windage to be purely a record of what the rifle can do.

    Second, even if I had perfect conditions every time, those groups are going to look boringly similar and the reviews would have four photos in them that would be identical, save for a couple of mm either way. As it stands, I'll usually shoot in the lulls between breezes at 30, 35 and 45 yards, maybe 50 on a perfect day, and if a sub-12 hunting rifle can group well at the longer ranges, I know it will do the job required of it. My system isn't perfect, but in the real world, no system can be. Still, as someone once said, 'it's better than nothing.'
    If you don't know enough to judge - don't judge

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by krisko View Post
    i think the original poster should have named it PRECISION not accuracy and this discussion would have been clearer. I see he mentioned that this is about PCPs and group sizes.
    I agree with every thing you have said in this post. Precision is the key, providing of course we do not use the US definition of precision. In the UK and Europe precision is the combination of group size and accuracy where as in the US it is the name given to group size. I cannot remember what the combination of group size and accuracy are called in the US. The one word which is defined the same in all countries is accuracy which is, as I stated previously, nothing to do with group size.

  13. #73
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    1 pellet hole group.

    In all the years i have been shooting I have only shot 1 genuine 5 pellet hole group. the distance was 30 yds and the gun was my hw100 kt and the pellet was bisley magnum .177. the target was a pellet hole. as the 5th pellet went through i couldnt believe it and i still have the group today. there was obviously an element of luck involved. i have never done it again but i have come close. if i can do five 1/4 inch groups on the trot in still conditions at 30yds with my 97 springer rested its a red letter day.

  14. #74
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Telephonepete View Post
    In all the years i have been shooting I have only shot 1 genuine 5 pellet hole group. the distance was 30 yds and the gun was my hw100 kt and the pellet was bisley magnum .177. the target was a pellet hole. as the 5th pellet went through i couldnt believe it and i still have the group today. there was obviously an element of luck involved. i have never done it again but i have come close. if i can do five 1/4 inch groups on the trot in still conditions at 30yds with my 97 springer rested its a red letter day.
    Or could be one pellet hole, and the rest could have missed completely. Hard to resist, sorry. Rog

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by robs5230 View Post
    5 pages .
    Go to General Settings
    Scroll do to 'Number of Posts to Show Per Page' and set to 40 post per page






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