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Thread: Is .223 worth it?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by taz2 View Post
    ok
    last try and then I'm done.
    A ''2min'' rifle equates to 4 ins spread at 200 yds (your max for deer). Add that to your personal error in aiming (not a sleight on you--but your own admission due to 100 yd stalk), and suddenly you could be out of the kill-zone for a deer--- maybe a lot out.
    Oh, and despite taking the time to ensure that my rifles shoot as well as possible, I do find time to use them for what they're made for. You only have to sort a load out once usually.
    My point is at <1" I'm sorted, that's enough for me and I get out and use them, no doubt by changing bullets, powder, seating depth etc. I could halve that in most of my rifle but I don't think I'd miss less or kill more.

    As for the deer point, this is why most people chest shoot deer rather than head shoot - on a roe your 'kill zone' is 4" granted but if your POA is correct then too low for the heart and its generally a clean miss, 2" high you are top of lungs / spine resulting in dead or immobiled deer, 2" too far forward you break both shoulders / hit the Hilar zone resulting in a dead or immobile deer, 2" too far back you hit the liver, deer will run but you should have a good blood trail and deer should bleed out quickly so humane (only time this has happened to me deer didn't make 100 yards).

    Also with 4" kill zone as mentioned above you are talking roe, as the species get bigger so does the kill zone, about 8" on a red . . . . I've also seen Kenny hit 8 bulls in a row with a 7.5 x 55 and iron sights, rested off of a bag, at 900 yards and he usually shoots from a high seat on deer.
    Thanks for looking

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by kennyc View Post
    you could be, but in real life you aren't, I have watched Boydy take repeated headshots on rabbits out to 150+yards without a miss, yet his rifle probably wouldn't impress on paper, and these were at night with NV and off of sticks!
    My 20 year old hornet with a pitted bore, I love that rifle!!
    Thanks for looking

  3. #33
    Parabuteo is offline My Chrony has bought it a couple of times...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boydy47 View Post
    So i mean chamber spec's are the same, clearly not though, every day's a learner . . .
    Mate, truth is even the experts argue about it. Some reckon that the figures quoted for 7.62x51 NATO (The NATO bit is important) and .308 Win are iffy anyway (near identical) but are just measured in different ways. Yes the 5.56x45 chamber does have a longer leade but there are other chamberings, Rock River (Wylde Chamber) and Armalite, along with others.

    One of the real UK issues used to be people sticking factory 155gn .308 loads through the old enfield actioned target rifles. A lot of these were designed for .303 Brit with a single rear locking lug, and tight bored to deal with the 144/6/7 grain FMJ .306 bullets in issues L2A2 ammo, so they shot better but were weak to start with. The enfield action as was is weak, like it or not.

    Stick a full spec .308 up one and you may well get a nasty surprise down the line. On the other hand my old M67 had a chunky 3 lug Mauser action in it and took abuse. I used it for FTr and it is still shooting 1MOA off the elbows.

    The main idea was that the mil spec chamber would take and fire anything with the NSN mark on it to a required performance (the little circle with the cross in it). If it does not have that, it is not designated 7.62x51 or 5.56x45 NATO....officially. SS109 spec. The yanks have muddied the water with the M855A1 that has a steel core and copper jacket, goes like stink, would be banned at Bisley (as it does not break up) and is a barrel burner as it has to be blown along like stink. Then there is the Mk318 that is more lethal from a short barrel and better for penetration, looking like a match round but isnt, then you get the BH Mod262 match round with its 77gr bullet, that is being used in the field....and so it goes on.

    Even our chambers get hot and can be a bit sticky so imagine the fun with an M16A2 or a Minimi. I am just about to have a .308/7.62x51 NATO rifle built. I have a 7.62x51 slot, but will be putting .308 Win and 7.62x51 through it (all handloads as it goes and possibly some surplus). I have a 7.62x51 slot so go figure. I am told it will be .308 Win proofed anyway.

    Chambering in the military stuff is usually to allow for the same dimension ammo but possibly with slightly more generous tolerances for dust, oil and dust, oil, heat, water, friday afternoon on the ammo plant, captured local non spec ammo....moths...camels....bricks....yanks having good ideas.....all the usual shite that gets in chambers and shouldnt...and keep firing
    I'm a maggot in another life you know

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parabuteo View Post
    Mate, truth is even the experts argue about it. Some reckon that the figures quoted for 7.62x51 NATO (The NATO bit is important) and .308 Win are iffy anyway (near identical) but are just measured in different ways. Yes the 5.56x45 chamber does have a longer leade but there are other chamberings, Rock River (Wylde Chamber) and Armalite, along with others.

    One of the real UK issues used to be people sticking factory 155gn .308 loads through the old enfield actioned target rifles. A lot of these were designed for .303 Brit with a single rear locking lug, and tight bored to deal with the 144/6/7 grain FMJ .306 bullets in issues L2A2 ammo, so they shot better but were weak to start with. The enfield action as was is weak, like it or not.

    Stick a full spec .308 up one and you may well get a nasty surprise down the line. On the other hand my old M67 had a chunky 3 lug Mauser action in it and took abuse. I used it for FTr and it is still shooting 1MOA off the elbows.

    The main idea was that the mil spec chamber would take and fire anything with the NSN mark on it to a required performance (the little circle with the cross in it). If it does not have that, it is not designated 7.62x51 or 5.56x45 NATO....officially. SS109 spec. The yanks have muddied the water with the M855A1 that has a steel core and copper jacket, goes like stink, would be banned at Bisley (as it does not break up) and is a barrel burner as it has to be blown along like stink. Then there is the Mk318 that is more lethal from a short barrel and better for penetration, looking like a match round but isnt, then you get the BH Mod262 match round with its 77gr bullet, that is being used in the field....and so it goes on.

    Even our chambers get hot and can be a bit sticky so imagine the fun with an M16A2 or a Minimi. I am just about to have a .308/7.62x51 NATO rifle built. I have a 7.62x51 slot, but will be putting .308 Win and 7.62x51 through it (all handloads as it goes and possibly some surplus). I have a 7.62x51 slot so go figure. I am told it will be .308 Win proofed anyway.

    Chambering in the military stuff is usually to allow for the same dimension ammo but possibly with slightly more generous tolerances for dust, oil and dust, oil, heat, water, friday afternoon on the ammo plant, captured local non spec ammo....moths...camels....bricks....yanks having good ideas.....all the usual shite that gets in chambers and shouldnt...and keep firing
    There we go then, PS hope you're well
    Thanks for looking

  5. #35
    Parabuteo is offline My Chrony has bought it a couple of times...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boydy47 View Post
    There we go then, PS hope you're well


    Smoke and mirrors often quoted by folk who dont reload Scott.

    The bottom line is that for most bullet and powder combos there is a safe starting point that should not blow anything up. The more experianced you get the less time it takes you to develope a safe, accurate load.

    Many beginners dont get this and wonder why because a pet load works in one rifle, it is not safe to simply bung it in an identical rifle and crack on.

    I have given up on the quest for velocity above and beyond, I just need something that chambers perfectly each time, ejects smoothly and does 1MOA or better out to 600....reliably. I dont think many people understand what effect a simple small change in load will cause in terms of harmonics and group size.

    I reckon every handloader should shoot a ladder test at least once, it gives a real insight into nodes and ideal load starting points with minimal ammo use.




    And then there is F class
    I'm a maggot in another life you know

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