Schimel GP22

[PaulR]

I recently acquired one of these - rare as hens teeth (well almost) in working condition. I have a question.

For those not in the know (apologies to those who are) these are Luger replicas made in the US for a couple of years in the late 1940s.
They are powered by 8gm CO2 bulbs and are quite powerful for the UK market - 5 ft/lbs or so.

I have a dilemma - mine (see first three images) has lost most of the black finish. Personally I have no problem in respraying matt black and when fully hardened wiping with oil. I did this with half a 600 and the finish matches the original (the half I left original as it was OK).

Many would say "AAARGGGH - not original - you will lose value". TBH originality can be restored (IMHO) if it is surface deep such as a paint finish. If a future owner felt differently it would be easy enough to remove my surface coating.

Thoughts please.

https://paulr986.imgur.com/all/ - just seen that takes you to other images (Crosman 600) too - ignore the KWC PO8 - but that actually illustrates my point - the last Crosman picture shows where the front half (the bit where the CO2 bulb is behind) has been restored as it was almost bare metal when I bought it whilst everything behind it is original. I haven't "aged" it but just used it it has become marked like the rest. Looks OK to me?

[draitzer]

Schimels had some kind of chemical blacking on the zinc cast material, which may be difficult to duplicate. However, a quick Google search shows several commercial zinc-blacking potions plus home-brew advices. One thread suggested looking for a local stained-glass shop that would have "zinc patina" material to try out.

I don't recall seeing any Schimel presented as a restored gun, so you may have the opportunity to pioneer a new field here!

Best of luck and we'll look forward to hearing how you fare.

Don R.

[Benelli B76]

Schimels had some kind of chemical blacking on the zinc cast material, which may be difficult to duplicate. However, a quick Google search shows several commercial zinc-blacking potions plus home-brew advices. One thread suggested looking for a local stained-glass shop that would have "zinc patina" material to try out.

I don't recall seeing any Schimel presented as a restored gun, so you may have the opportunity to pioneer a new field here!

Best of luck and we'll look forward to hearing how you fare.


Don R.

I paint them satin black, not matt, as it gives a pleasing finish to the Schimels. Lawrie Amatruda who has worked on well over 100 of these tells me that aluminium black works on the zinc body of these. The relative of the original guys Clifford and Orville, Jon Schimel, was supplying a few spares including new grips which I bought but seems to have closed down and moved. The value of these is fairly stagnant, sold one with new grips for £300 yesterday.

Baz

[IMG][/IMG]

[PaulR]

Baz you are right - just looked at what I sprayed the 600 with - satin black (doh - previous research led me to buy it) my brain is not what it was!

I also used a spray undercoat which, I believe, will work with most base metals/compounds so am pretty happy with how the Schimel will look.

I guess what I really wanted to ask (although I'll do it anyway) is what are others thoughts on "restoring" surface finishes on older/rarer items?

£300 with new grips is a great price. I got mine (fully working) for £230 a couple of days ago. A great seller - he offered it to me for that price after getting a valuation of £275 on here. I accepted and despite getting higher offers afterwards he just said NO - it has been sold. A true gentleman. I will add that I made no offer but just said I was interested before the valuations came in and he came back to me with a price (AFTER they came in) which I accepted. Be assured it has gone to a good home and it'll be used with the absolute care it needs - cocking that lever assuredly and firmly but with respect. I actually like the fact that you have to push forward to seal a chamber, cock the lever and then manipulate the toggle to load - the end resulting fire is just so worth it!

Interesting reading about them - the grips (apparently) shrink and that is to do with daylight (UV) but mine look pretty much perfect - must have been stored in the dark. The metal goes powdery which can cause problems but, again, mine has no such concerns.

[Benelli B76]

Baz you are right - just looked at what I sprayed the 600 with - satin black (doh - previous research led me to buy it) my brain is not what it was!

I also used a spray undercoat which, I believe, will work with most base metals/compounds so am pretty happy with how the Schimel will look.

I guess what I really wanted to ask (although I'll do it anyway) is what are others thoughts on "restoring" surface finishes on older/rarer items?

I think with zinc ( Zamak) type airguns it makes no difference to value from my experience. Smith 78 and 79 G, 600'S, Schimel etc, sell for the same price whether refinished or not. With steel that has been re-blued it seems to make a difference to some collectors. The Schimel I sold yesterday was grey and not touched from original but I would have got the same price if it had been black.

Baz

[PaulR]

I think with zinc ( Zamak) type airguns it makes no difference to value from my experience. Smith 78 and 79 G, 600'S, Schimel etc, sell for the same price whether refinished or not. With steel that has been re-blued it seems to make a difference to some collectors. The Schimel I sold yesterday was grey and not touched from original but I would have got the same price if it had been black.

Baz

Thanks Baz - whilst I was not worried about resale value (I just want the pistol to look new as I enjoy using it) your comments make sense - although, personally, re-blued is no different - just a surface finish.

[nige346]

I paint them satin black, not matt, as it gives a pleasing finish to the Schimels. Lawrie Amatruda who has worked on well over 100 of these tells me that aluminium black works on the zinc body of these. The relative of the original guys Clifford and Orville, Jon Schimel, was supplying a few spares including new grips which I bought but seems to have closed down and moved. The value of these is fairly stagnant, sold one with new grips for £300 yesterday.

Baz

[IMG][/IMG]

The example you sold yesterday was very nice indeed (if the missus hadn't been with me!!!),

another hard wearing and durable finish is graphite heat paint, (exhaust/BBQ paint) once cured it is pretty much oil and solvent resistant and very hard wearing, I've have some great results airbrushing this to an exceptional finish, it does however require heat curing and I'd be very reluctant to put a Schimel frame anywhere near an oven due to the material already being quite fragile (any heat will cause material expansion and may crack the cast zinc), If you do paint use an etch primer to give durability and for a really good finish airbrushing wins, a very basic airbrush will invariably give a better finish that a spray can.

[DT Fletcher]

I think that most of the value of a Schimel is that it's Lugar replica and is very popular far beyond just airgun collectors. About the only time that the never-restore rule applies are with airguns that only serious airgun collectors will purchase. So, imo, a good refinish of a Schimel -that makes it a better looking airgun, more pleasing to use- only works to increase the value of the gun.


A good example of the cost of restoring was with the Myron Kasok auction. In that auction were several rare Crosman 1923 models that can fetch $1000 plus. But both of these guns were restoring to a gleaming finish to the point that they looked nothing like the originals. Realized prices were around $500, if I recall. The sellers (Myron's sons) were shocked at the low prices and called me about it, I explained that the only people in the world interested in paying big bucks for these guns are serious Crosman collectors and they have no interest in refinished guns. This rule holds pretty well for most all of the vintage Crosman models.

[Benelli B76]

Nige, thanks for the lovely Tell 2. I just cut an O ring groove in the piston on the lathe and re-assembled, it shoots great and the best finish I have seen on one. Regarding finishes, I have just done an experiment using stove paint. You warm up the metal in the oven then spray and put back in the oven at around 180 C for 30 mins. Just done a really rough Webley Senior and it looks great. I am a bit wary of doing this with a Schimel as their recipe for the Zamak seems a bit different in those early days, hence the production of white powder on some. Not sure of the percentage mix of the alloys. I will start a refinish job on a Schimel next week and put a pic on here before and after.

Baz

gingernuts plink n whiz....anyone got the repeater model ? Reminds me of the Thompson Contender we used in Africa.

[IMG][/IMG]

[gingernut]

Another of my mad moments from Sunday’s Kempton

It shoots well and I’ve put a new co2 cylinder in it ( always the acid test !)

But as it’s me I spent sometime trying to get .22 pellets into it...see box and .22 markings on pistol.

Someone has put a 177 barrel in it.
Barrels are interchangeable apparently.

It cost $15 new which is about what I paid for it.

[Abasmajor]

An interesting pneumatic version of the GP22 designated the AP22 was advertised, but I'm not sure any were ever actually produced. I wouldn't have thought the pump stroke would have been long enough to provide sufficient power in this design.

I love the quirkiness of the GP22 which is quite accurate at 10 metres and always discharges with a satisfying crack. If the production period had been longer, I'm sure an interlink between the charging lever and the cocking latch would have been developed to prevent the total loss of gas if these steps weren't carried out in the correct sequence.





Brian

[nige346]

Your more than welcome & i'd agree the finish is nice, The 3 best pistols I have were all of the same piston design by different makers in different countries, Tell - Germany, Acvoke - UK and Hy-score - USA, I managed to pick up a MK1 Webley Straight grip for the sum of £80 (not at Kempton) I was looking for one at the show but never got one I did however get a couple of mainsprings one of which will go straight in as its low on power, but for £80!!! I ain't grumbling, After my serious shooting last night at the club the rest of the evening was spent "playing" with the Sparkler I purchased from gingernut, plenty of BB repeater shooting but then a single hole 10 shot group with pellets , I can't do that with my Morini, lol, I would think some luck was involved but a quirky pistol of superb build quality.
Gonna try rust bluing, just made a humidity box and heated water trough to carry out trials over Easter on a couple of scrap barrels, a slow process but durable finish, will let you know how it goes.

cheers Nige

Nige, thanks for the lovely Tell 2. I just cut an O ring groove in the piston on the lathe and re-assembled, it shoots great and the best finish I have seen on one. Regarding finishes, I have just done an experiment using stove paint. You warm up the metal in the oven then spray and put back in the oven at around 180 C for 30 mins. Just done a really rough Webley Senior and it looks great. I am a bit wary of doing this with a Schimel as their recipe for the Zamak seems a bit different in those early days, hence the production of white powder on some. Not sure of the percentage mix of the alloys. I will start a refinish job on a Schimel next week and put a pic on here before and after.

Baz

gingernuts plink n whiz....anyone got the repeater model ? Reminds me of the Thompson Contender we used in Africa.

[IMG][/IMG]

[gingernut]

Glad you are pleased with the Hammerli Sparkler Nige.
It is a fungun.
The Hammerli Single, Master etc pistols are serious target pistols.

So look out for them!

[DT Fletcher]

gingernuts plink n whiz....anyone got the repeater model ? Reminds me of the Thompson Contender we used in Africa.

[IMG][/IMG]

The Plink-n-Whiz was designed by none other than Rudy Merz. Merz was forced out of Crosman by PY Hahn, to acquire Rudy's stock options -a very underhanded thing to do that denied Merz the money he had earned- and helped to start Ampell as VP of Engineering.

The idea behind this design was manufacturability and low cost; for this, it had as few a number of parts as possible.

Funky gun. No commercial success, from what can be determined.

[nige346]

Glad you are pleased with the Hammerli Sparkler Nige.
It is a fungun.
The Hammerli Single, Master etc pistols are serious target pistols.

So look out for them!

After holding your example I think the master is a must