Original 45 and Tuning

[Drew451]

The 45 is seldom mentioned when it comes to tuning, and i dont recall a lot of tuning options for it back in the day. I was wondering if anyone here has ever tuned or shot a tuned/ modified example.

[richywilk]

I'm sure our own Jim Tyler tuned one back in the 80's and did a full article on it...changed the piston seal etc. I think it went fac.will try to dig the mag out.
Atb richy

[jonnyone]

Short answer as regards to having shot a fully sorted 45 is nope.

However I have done a simple overhaul and fettle on two of my 45s and one 50T01- the same engine house as the 45 in under lever format. This comprised of a new spring, delrin guide, top hat, polish and smoothing of all surfaces and fitting of a synthetic (ptfe) piston head.

The results are a greatly improved firing action and increased consistency. Though ptfe appears to be the new taboo material these days on piston heads all three have been.improved by fitting.

I can only dream of what a fully glided 45 action would feel like as I feel the gun has all the basics right and must be sublime if fully sorted.

In regards to why full tuning services were not so common on 45s back in the day I feel that this was mainly due to fact that even then Dianas were not as common as muck like HWs and it was simply down to market forces. As per herd instinct wins. More HWs got fettled than any other marque

If someone offered a conversion to a full synthetic bearing set up on Dianas I would deffo get one of my 45s upgraded if mot more of them.

Dave

[andrewM]

Short answer as regards to having shot a fully sorted 45 is nope.

However I have done a simple overhaul and fettle on two of my 45s and one 50T01- the same engine house as the 45 in under lever format. This comprised of a new spring, delrin guide, top hat, polish and smoothing of all surfaces and fitting of a synthetic (ptfe) piston head.

The results are a greatly improved firing action and increased consistency. Though ptfe appears to be the new taboo material these days on piston heads all three have been.improved by fitting.

I can only dream of what a fully glided 45 action would feel like as I feel the gun has all the basics right and must be sublime if fully sorted.

In regards to why full tuning services were not so common on 45s back in the day I feel that this was mainly due to fact that even then Dianas were not as common as muck like HWs and it was simply down to market forces. As per herd instinct wins. More HWs got fettled than any other marque

If someone offered a conversion to a full synthetic bearing set up on Dianas I would deffo get one of my 45s upgraded if mot more of them.

Dave

To improve my knowledge, why are PTFEs unpopular these days and what is the alternative?

I did read, somewhere on this site I think it was, that moving from leather to synthetic would upset the mechanics of an air rifle - perhaps, as I seem to recall, because the synthetic material contracted - and this reduced, in turn, the power.

I found your reference to HWs being 'as common as muck' most amusing; I could never quite bring myself to buying one just because everyone else seemed to have one! That said, I rather think that Dianas are underestimated and I discovered this when I bought by own 45 nearly 40 years ago, which I still have. I believe the company has recently come under different ownership, so it will be interesting to see how they develop.

Edit: I have now found the post, relating to the reference to which I alluded above, posted by pennineway.fswo, on 7th April:

"Just fit a standard piston seal available from J Knibbs or Chambers. Not expensive and easy to fit as long as you have a spring compressor. The power may be low because the Rob ptfe seal has expanded from use and is now too tight in the cylinder
These ptfe seals seem to work ok in low powered rifles but my experience is that they do not always work in full power rifles like the FWB
John "

[jonnyone]

To improve my knowledge, why are PTFEs unpopular these days and what is the alternative?

I did read, somewhere on this site I think it was, that moving from leather to synthetic would upset the mechanics of an air rifle - perhaps, as I seem to recall, because the synthetic material contracted - and this reduced, in turn, the power.

I found your reference to HWs being 'as common as muck' most amusing; I could never quite bring myself to buying one just because everyone else seemed to have one! That said, I rather think that Dianas are underestimated and I discovered this when I bought by own 45 nearly 40 years ago, which I still have. I believe the company has recently come under different ownership, so it will be interesting to see how they develop.

Evening mate.
On a personal level I've fitted.ptfe to quite a few guns to good effect. However a few here have reported problems with the heads becoming tight over extended periods.of time. Again, on a personal front this has never happened to me. Indeed I have a nice punchy RWS 45 I fitted a Robb ptfe seal to when I was around 18. This still puts out pretty.much the same power it did then. I turn 52 next month so I'll let you make your own mind up on that one. For those who have had personal bad experience of a material or component I am all ears. For those that regurgitate things they have read somewhere on the net I take less.notice of.
As for alternatives well nowadays there are a couple of manufacturers making replacements from pretty.much OEM materials or something close to it. Back.in the day there wasn't the choice there.is now. In the case of Diana I think conversion kits are available to go.from leather to OEM seal via metal piston head adapter. This would be my choice these days as Diana seals take some beating.
I did buy HWs like the herd and actually do rate them. But sometimes if you go a little way off the beaten track you can discover some gems. And so it is with Diana- for me anyhow. I think I've likely bought my last HW years ago, as nothing in their current springer range catches my eye though as I say I do very much rate them. I think they gave lost something over the years. Same must be said of Diana mind...
But aside of Diana only AA gets my attention in modern terms these days.
Dave

[Drew451]

Yes, deformation of the PTFE seal has been reported by some in rifles thus equipped. But not by others, who enjoy trouble free shooting with theirs.
If possible, I'd like to avoid a PTFE fracas on the thread.

[andrewM]

Thanks Drew451 and Johnnyone. I have made a note of these comments and put them into my FWB file, for future reference, should this be required. I work on the basis that something might need replacing or could go wrong and I then call upon these valuable discussions to guide me.http://www.airgunbbs.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

[Muskett]

There were a few reasons that not too many were tuned up. The factory stock was not very sexy and no one offered semi custom one. They shot full power straight out of the box and very accurately. The worry was any tune, more than a lube up, might put it over the limit.

[jonnyone]

There were a few reasons that not too many were tuned up. The factory stock was not very sexy and no one offered semi custom one. They shot full power straight out of the box and very accurately. The worry was any tune, more than a lube up, might put it over the limit.

I see where you are coming from on the bland stock aspect. Compared to its illustrious compatriots at the time in the form of HW, FWB, BSF etc it was a plain Jane. For those enlightened enough to purchase the 45 proved its pedigree. I think that another matter that could have put custom stock manufacturers off is the cross bolt arrangement on the stock. Not an impossible thing to replicate but a further complication and one you have to get spot on every time if a blank is not to be ruined.

Trapshot obviously did work on early 45s as did Venom. As pointed out very little was needed to the action performance wise as they were nudging the limit in standard trim. But we all know thats only one aspect of a high performing gun. Smoothness and accuracy is more desirable and I think this is something that some at least wanted from their guns, particularly in the increasingly popular sport of FT back in the days.

Timeline wise the gun arrived on the scene a tad early to benefit from work to add synthetic bearing surfaces to the piston and the such. As already said I think there's life in the old dog yet and I wonder is there a 45 out there somewhere with this work completed to it. I wonder how such a gun would perform?
Dave

[Shed tuner]

I just purchased an older Diana 34 T05. Plan is to sleave it down to 24mm and keep the 80mm piston stroke. also need to reduce the TP. Piston will have rear bearing and be free to rotate. A little summer project. Just need to see how tricky the TP is going to be as without that doing the rest is a non-starter.

[greenwayjames]

There were a few reasons that not too many were tuned up. The factory stock was not very sexy and no one offered semi custom one. They shot full power straight out of the box and very accurately. The worry was any tune, more than a lube up, might put it over the limit.

I checked with Bowket because he carried out a lot of conversions on different spring air rifles in the 1980/early 90s. He did indeed develop one for the Original 45 which used a piston head similar to the one he developed for the HW55. It meant he could shorten the stroke and use one of his universal 24 coil mainsprings to bring it down to below 12 ft/lbs for the UK market. He told me that he used to buy small batches of Original 45s in .20" for the barrels. These barrels were fitted to .177" FWBs that had his high power conversions and shipped to the US the FWB barrels being fitted to Original 45s. Apparently it was cheaper than buying barrels as spares and FWB didnt make a .20". There must be some interesting .177" 45s still gathering dust in grandads loft somewhere.

[Muskett]

The last big import of 45's were .20 Cal late in the 80's?? They took forever to shift by the look of the discounts offered. The rise of the PCP and that the 45 was now really old hat. There were better off the shelf rifles to be had, prettier and every bit as good if not better. Theobens were producing great rifles for those with the budget.
Early 80's it was cheaper than the Sport or the HW's; not much more than anything offered by BSA or Webley and was better than them. Only thing holding them back is they weren't overly marketed, so really for those in the know and not wanting to spend too much. THey were my recommendation at the time for those without unlimited funds but wanted something good.
The less sexy or expensive German offering.


i've had a few and have just the one now in .177. It shoots as well as anything from that era, well anything factory. I think a good looker, and I like its slightly weight forwardness; pretty well behaved too. Goes with the Annie 335 which was underrated. Both could have done with a walnut deluxe stock option for the fans, but never happened.

There was an aftermarket plastic/fibreglass?? FT Stock produced.

[greenwayjames]

The last big import of 45's were .20 Cal late in the 80's??

JB said Original altered the style of rifling in the later .20 45s. The earlier ones worked well with yellow label H&Ns at about 850fps in the re-barrelled FWBs.

[PCPShooter]

The 45 is seldom mentioned when it comes to tuning, and i dont recall a lot of tuning options for it back in the day. I was wondering if anyone here has ever tuned or shot a tuned/ modified example.

Yes, I've had 3 tuned by V Mach, and wish I'd kept them -
The barrels are a bit soft, but they are probably (with old hw35s) the nicest shooting leather piston washer rifles, and are best left that way -
A V Mach spring n guide set and new or reconditioned leather seal, soaked / trimmed etc - beautiful

[Drew451]

Really good replies on the thread. Thanks lads.