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Thread: Thinking of trying HFT

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
    No worries Noz, Are you struggling with driving?

    Just to clarify the costs involved in FT and HFT. I'm covering PCP's here.

    For HFT the lower end would be the S400 and a SH scope, something along the lines of the 10x44 MTC Viper with SCB ret. You could compete for approx £350....maybe £500 if there's a bottle too. the upper end can be the Target rifles (or custom made jobbies) with something like a March, Nighforce or leup. You're looking at 2-3k (at least). My HFT rig is a Steyr with a 10x42 Sightron....probably around £1400 for the rig so pretty much in the middle.

    For FT the lower end can be the same rifle, it's the scope that going to cost as the better the glass then (normally) the better the range finding also better turret tracking and mag adjuster. You can compete with some of the older 8-32x40 bushnells (£250-£350 SH)but would struggle to compete with the FT sightron and top of the tree March, it all depends on what level you want to compete at. When walking around the GP you'll see a lot of the top kit as a GP is pretty much top level and the shooters would have been littered with World, Euro , British and regional champs. When shooting these comps you get to meet some sound people who you wouldn't realise had been a world champ.....only by the fact that they had a blinding score

    Edit - just wanted to say that top end kit doesn't equate to top end scores.
    I did say that that I knew it was an Elite event and as such, top equipment would be in use. As a golfer for 50 years, I am well aware that top kit does not automatically ensure good scores! The wind on the day was quite strong, across some of the lanes as well, so the winning score of Andy Calpin, 47, was very good in my opinion. I hope to give it go but it will be after surgery so it will be a while, I'm afraid. Many thanks to all who offered their advice and opinions. Meanwhile, I am sticking to BR.

  2. #32
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    If you can find a club in your area, pop round, and you'll find that the 'average' member wont be shooting the 'top end', and you'll find that there are a lot of S400, old Huntsmen and similar in use, same with the scopes, 10-40x50 Zos tend to be 'entry level' moving up to a second hand Nikko, though in the club I'm a member of, scopes vary from a 3-9 up to a Sightron, also, once you join a club, second hand kit does come up from people upgrading their kit.

  3. #33
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    These types of thread are quite common.

    I read the blog and It's a well written thing to get the message across that you don't need top gear or be a great shot to turn up and enjoy HFT. So from that point of view it does it's job.

    So we often get people that are already in the sport ( sports if we are including FT as that has crept in on this thread ), telling those that are not yet in the sport ( maybe peering in through the window and wondering if they should give it a go ) that you can get started and do well with a springer and a 3-9x40 scope ... just turn up and enjoy the banter. If you just want to eat burgers, drink tea and take the p1ss you can turn up with a thick elastic band and some folded up blotting paper.

    Performance wise ... the best shooters would score within a point or so of what they achieve now with £3,000+ worth of top gear if they went around with £1,000 worth of gear. After all ... that's exactly what they were doing just a few years back. That extra couple of grand on top gear just improves their performances by a very small percentage ... and they will rightly say that one point over a season can mean the difference between being Champ or Runner-Up.

    Putting that another way ... A decent PCP with a well matched barrel and batch of pellets and a decent scope ... costing no more than £1,000 for HFT including a bottle, will get you a long way up the ladder before you need to start spending any more. The rest is down to time on the range and shooting loads of courses to learn range, wind and adaptability. Probably not much more for FT ... maybe a tad more for a decent ranging scope. I still reckon personally that anyone with half a brain and the ability to shoot, could use a much lesser mag scope for FT and learn to bracket and get very reasonable scores. Good enough scores to be really enjoying it.

    Some folk spend a fortune and will never be more than a very average shot. Some stick with basic kit and go all the way to challenging, and beating now and again, the very best. Some don't really care about scores and genuinely do just turn up for the banter.

    Do both sports have to put their hands up though and ask themselves if all the mega kit has really improved the sports overall? Like I said, the same top shooters were winning the same comps just a few years back with kit costing much less. Were the sports less enjoyable then? Was the banter, burgers or cups of tea a lower standard?

    Again ... as above ... these threads often lead to those already in the sports preaching to the already converted ( themselves ) about how anyone can just turn up and give these sports a go with whatever kit they have. It's the people who aren't shooting these sports that need convincing and I know that's the point of this thread and the blog article. There's evidence in this thread, again, and I personally think his comments were slightly exaggerated, that a non-participant looks in and 'gets the impression' that you need mega kit to take part and do well.

    We can preach to people that they can turn up and just use any old thing, but people are strange things. They don't want to look out of place. They don't want to park their Lada amongst all the Mercs and BMW's. That's why a majority of existing shooters are using thousands of pounds worth of top end gear and still don't get great scores ... certainly no better scores than they'd get with kit costing a fraction of the price. They just want to be with the 'in crowd' and not feel any different than the guys who are knocking down all but a couple of targets.

    So we persuade these new folk to turn up and give it a go with their basic kit and lack of experience. What scores do they get? Yes I know ... scores don't really count ... just enjoy yourself. Will they be the same level of scores that they would have got 10+ years ago ... or will they be less because courses have been made tougher to accommodate/test the better shots with top end gear? Will the low scores that the newbies get be so low that they don't keep coming back? Would higher starting scores on yesteryear's 'easier' courses have made the difference and kept them coming back?

    When was the period where the greatest number of airgunners flooded towards these sports ( particularly HFT )? Was it after several years of them starting up when word had got around and people with basic kit could turn up, not look out of place, and get scores, on easier courses, that kept them coming back? Or has it been in the last few years since courses have become tougher and the cost of kit risen beyond £2,000+? I really don't know the answer to that. It's a genuine question. If the answer is that newcomer numbers have dropped over the last couple of years then that's maybe telling a story. If newcomer numbers have risen and continue to do so over the last few years, then the introduction of mega kit has enhanced the sport(s).

    I enjoyed the blog article. It is written by a guy who has only been shooting a short while, with a second hand TX and a cheapo scope, and he's just top scored in the HFT category of the BRC. So he's not your average Joe. Your average Joe may have had several scores of 30ish with similar kit and thought I'm best staying in bed on a Sunday morning.

    As I've always said it's down to the numbers. If newcomers are outnumbering those leaving/retiring then it's all good.

    It's great having these threads where target shooters all pull together to sing the usual hymns, but what's probably more useful is a thread, maybe with a poll, asking those who have thought about taking up FT or HFT why they haven't done so. Or ... If you did give them a go but walked away pretty quickly then why?
    Last edited by bozzer; 25-04-2018 at 08:42 AM.

  4. #34
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    Bozzer you've made a lot of good points.

    2nd place in the open class of the Daystate Midland Hunter Series was decided by 0.76% this year. You could argue that at this level the expensive kit could give enough of an advantage to bump you up a place.

    With regards to people wanting to have the best kit, I think there's a few reasons for it. Some of it may be trying to keep up with everyone else, but I think a lot of it is because that's your hobby and of course you want nice things. It's human nature. I would love a Ferrari 355 F1, but I know it wouldn't make me a fast driver.
    Although saying this, looking at the rifles/scopes in use at the Worlds would indicate that a lot of people are buying top kit to try and bump their score up.

    I wasn't shooting 10 years ago, so I don't know what the courses were like. But I can comment on current courses. It does somewhat depend on an individual's attitude, but I personally think there are enough targets in the easier to middling category to ensure newcomers can get an OK score. When we first started we could normally get 30's unless there was extreme wind. One of the people that shot with us didn't get much practice either because he didn't own an air rifle (shared mine) and he could still plate most things and knock a few over. That was enough for us, but a very competitive person might think sod that and give up. I guess this is a personal thing.

    Am I an average Joe? Mostly. I don't have any secret shooting background or high baseline skill level to draw from. But I am lucky enough to get a lot of time to practice (I shoot 3 or 4 times a week, even if its only 30 minutes sessions after work) and some of that I would class as actual training instead of generic plinking. Not everyone is able to (or wants to) take it this seriously, in which case they might not progress as far with the basic kit. That's why a lot of people will upgrade quite quickly.
    Maybe there is an issue with what is considered a good score. I think 30 for a new shooter is perfectly reasonable, but then some more experienced shooters may be very unhappy with a 45 and vocalise it. I'm very guilty of this myself and it could be demoralising for a beginner. I really like the idea of A and B grades, but implementing this is a challenge and is a whole other topic in itself.

    I like the idea of a thread/poll. I'm going to make one now

  5. #35
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    Some people like taking part in competitions, most people don't.

    Sometimes the people that don't like taking part in competitions get badgered so much to have a go they they come up with excuses why they don't want to - when really - "I don't want to" should be enough.

    If you don't want to take part in comps as it just doesn't interest you - that is perfectly fine and you're in the majority.

    I don't care what people do - so long as they're safe doing it - crack on.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian.Samson View Post
    Some people like taking part in competitions, most people don't.

    Sometimes the people that don't like taking part in competitions get badgered so much to have a go they they come up with excuses why they don't want to - when really - "I don't want to" should be enough.

    If you don't want to take part in comps as it just doesn't interest you - that is perfectly fine and you're in the majority.

    I don't care what people do - so long as they're safe doing it - crack on.
    This is the voice of reason, common sense or just plain fact, which ever way you want to look at it. It's also the voice of experience.

    For many years I have been trying to get our members to get involved in shooting HFT in both club and regional competitions and whilst there has been some success, it has to be said that Brian has hit the nail on the head. The vast majority of our members are perfectly happy sitting under a covered area, often on a comfy chair with a bench to rest on. They will do this happily shooting targets out to 30 yards and may not even venture onto the long range. Our range I should add is a sterile walled in lawn area which has no bushes trees, hills or dips. To me, it's boring (I'm allowed to say that being secretary) and not a challenge. It does however contain a very important ingredient for any healthy club, and that's members; members who bring almost without exception a camaraderie common to the majority of clubs I have visited and shot with. Is this unique to airgun clubs? I don't know but I like to think it is.

    Those members who enjoy a chat and the company of other like minded members/shooters, sharing quality banter, help and support are to be fair of a certain age where crawling around in the mud and rain draws no appeal and having shot HFT for the past 20 years and now approaching the ages of these ladies and gents, I can see their point.

    Younger members also have reasons for not getting involved in competitions, sometimes family reasons, sometimes work related and sometimes due to health reasons.

    These members however, bring in funds via membership subs without which the club could not survive. As such, forcing members to attend comps is no longer on my agenda. I will encourage and extol the fun and challenge shooting in the woods can bring and will always be happy to let members attend a competition just to shoot the targets and not hand in a score card.

    We also have an induction process which requires every new member to attend both our indoor 10M range and our Popham Woods range on a normal club date at least once each, they don't have to shoot but if they do they get coaching and advice and at least can say they've tried it. There is no pressure on completing a course, just pick a few targets and have a go. Some won't come back and will carry on at our Walled Garden range, some will pop up occasionally and just plink at Popham, a small minority with join our FT or HFT teams and welcomed into competition shooting.

    I guess what Brian, myself and others are saying is that "you can lead a horse to water, but can't make it drink". I sometimes think that with some clubs, the be all and end all is having every member on a team, I suspect many will be just as happy getting together and having a yak with mates and may not even get their rifles out of their cases.

    Bob
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  7. #37
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    Simpilified, Sir Bob, we all know that plonkers, sorry plinkers, are the life blood of most airgun clubs.

    Never go off half cocked....

    All lies matter

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baxterbasics View Post
    Simpilified, Sir Bob, we all know that plonkers, sorry plinkers, are the life blood of most airgun clubs.

    That's it in a nutshell Ploppy

    Emley has quite a large ground but number the club members to approx the 150 mark...that means we know each other, trust those in the club and get plenty of banter. We too have the mainstay plinkers but they pay the same subs as everyone else so have the same say and benefits but ARE the ones who financially keep the club afloat. As the major comp holding club in the NEFTA region we actually only have a handful of comp shooters....maybe 7 or 8 HFT shooter and the same FT wise. We're also lucky as our dedicated FT shooters will set out a HFT course and the HFT shooters will fine tune....and vice versa, in fact when the FT worlds will be in the UK in 2019 there will be a cluster of HFT shooters on the helping list.

    Personally i think it's because we have a FT kneeling/standing class in our HFT comps and a SFT class in the FT winter league shoots....meaning the FT and HFT shooters mix and match. it's quite comical at our FT winter league shoots when you have a decent A grade FT shooter on the same lane as a good SFT shot and a strong recoiling shooter....talk about being focused.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
    That's it in a nutshell Ploppy

    Emley has quite a large ground but number the club members to approx the 150 mark...that means we know each other, trust those in the club and get plenty of banter. We too have the mainstay plinkers but they pay the same subs as everyone else so have the same say and benefits but ARE the ones who financially keep the club afloat. As the major comp holding club in the NEFTA region we actually only have a handful of comp shooters....maybe 7 or 8 HFT shooter and the same FT wise. We're also lucky as our dedicated FT shooters will set out a HFT course and the HFT shooters will fine tune....and vice versa, in fact when the FT worlds will be in the UK in 2019 there will be a cluster of HFT shooters on the helping list.

    Personally i think it's because we have a FT kneeling/standing class in our HFT comps and a SFT class in the FT winter league shoots....meaning the FT and HFT shooters mix and match. it's quite comical at our FT winter league shoots when you have a decent A grade FT shooter on the same lane as a good SFT shot and a strong recoiling shooter....talk about being focused.
    Interesting numbers Chris, almost identical to our club with the same sort of numbers in each discipline.

    Bob
    All of us could take a lesson from the weather. It pays no attention to criticism.

    BARPC

    Basingstoke Air Rifle & Pistol Club. Founded 1975

  10. #40
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    All good points, and I very rarely try to convert the happy plinkers into target shooters.

    However the blog post was intended primarily for people who DO want to try HFT, but have a doubt in their mind that is stopping them.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baxterbasics View Post
    Simpilified, Sir Bob, we all know that plonkers, sorry plinkers, are the life blood of most airgun clubs.

    Indeed so Lord Graham of Surrey! Trust you and yours are well?


    Bob
    All of us could take a lesson from the weather. It pays no attention to criticism.

    BARPC

    Basingstoke Air Rifle & Pistol Club. Founded 1975

  12. #42
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    It's tough enough having to compete against yourself, let alone other people!

  13. #43
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    Sorry for not jumping in earlier, Dan.

    Excellent; very nicely done, sir.
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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by lensman57 View Post
    Don't think, just do it.


    A.G
    I agree with this. I read about it back in 2007 and thought I'd like to give it a go, emailed Pete Sparkes and turned up at Quarry to have a go. The rest as they say is history.
    Some people are just wired to get up and go and others aren't. Doesn't matter if it's HFT or hill walking.

    I thought the comparision with bowling was a good one too. As for expensive kit, I'm pretty sure Chris Cundy and Kieran Turner shot with S200s a few years back in a magazine article to show the cost of the rifle had very little to do with scores, dare i say none (providing the rifle is shooting properly in the first place).
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  15. #45
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    I absolutely 100% agree that the majority of air gun shooters who drag themselves out of bed on a Sunday morning and go to a club to drink tea, eat bacon butties and enjoy the banter ... do so on the plinking range. Most aren't interested in shooting courses and certainly not travelling around the region or country shooting serious comps.

    So we've moved the goalposts there a little from ... Thinking of trying HFT? ... to ... Thinking of attending an air rifle club?

    There was a thread on STB quite recently and the general opinion there was that most folk just simply don't want to drive around shooting comps. So I think that's fact.

    I was talking more specifically about someone thinking about giving HFT a go and starting shooting some courses and comps.

    Yup ... Chris C and Kieran and many more would all but clear courses with basic kit. I was at the first Worlds when Kieran did just that ... not on one day ... but on both ... 60/60 day one ... 60/60 day two. I think he used a S400. There's no doubt shooting ability knocks down targets not expensive kit. We don't even need discuss that.

    Good points Dan about personal attitude. You are right that some people may struggle early on but will grasp that challenge and fight their way through the tough start and become better shots. Others will just give up and walk away as they want instant 50 plus scores.

    That's a real nightmare for the organisers to try and accommodate. They need courses that keep the very best interested and challenged ... but they need them 'inviting' enough so that newbies will enjoy them and knock enough down to keep them coming back. How on earth can they calculate in the 'attitude' of people who probably need to stick at it a bit longer and work a bit harder before giving up?

    I'll go read your poll. Thanks for doing that.
    Last edited by bozzer; 26-04-2018 at 07:16 AM.

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