would a new recoilless springer sell?

[Phil Russell]

Coffee time pondering: there are a few recoilless springers around but none that are, in my opinion, perfect mechanically such that they are easily self maintained by the majority of people. For instance, and here I give thoughts on issues with the currently available guns. All are rightly regarded as good rifles, it's just that I feel they could be better: TX200SR is let down by the sledge adjustment and trigger, particularly the sledge that can go out of adjustment. Park RH91/93 is a joy to shoot but is it easily user serviceable? Some say yes, others, no. Original Giss system Mod 65/66... not really user friendly for service and at 6ft lbs not for everyone (would a sub 12 one work or be reliable?). Diana 56 ... good and not bad for service but seems too heavy for some.
Some rifles, e.g. 66 need the trigger system partly stripping to service the rifle. A new model with a self contained trigger like the Rekord would be nice.
Maybe there is no market? And the idea that if you want a recoilless rifle, buy a pcp may be valid.
Just thoughts.
Cheers, Phil

[simona]

Such a rifle would be for enthusiasts only. It would be heavy and cumbersome as well as expensive. PCPs are a cheaper solution to this 11 ft lb/recoil less problem. They also tend to have superior triggers.

[les allam]

I have tried most of the guns mentioned and own a Park rifle,a model 6 pistol(giss system) and a Fwb65 pistol,all my guns shoot great, but like Simona as said it would have to be a true enthusiast that would be interested.The new Sterling side lever gun may be the answer??,I had a quick hold of the gun at the shooting show and I like it.
Les..

[Adam77K]

No it wouldn't in enough numbers to make it viable. A perfect storm of mechanical complexity, cost, potential unreliability, and very very small potential market of nuts... erm.. enthusiasts. It's a niche within a niche within a niche.

Given how good, simple and reliable you can make a non-regulated PCP it's a no-brainer. It's a shame as I love all the self contained powerplants (except gas rams which are the devil's work!)

[angrybear]

Some Hatsan's have a shock absorber system to dampen recoil, no idea if it works or not.

Problem would appear to be the small number of people who would buy one, ie serious springer enthusiasts.

[Hsing-ee]

Such a rifle would be for enthusiasts only. It would be heavy and cumbersome as well as expensive. PCPs are a cheaper solution to this 11 ft lb/recoil less problem. They also tend to have superior triggers.

This is about right.

I had a Park and a TX200SR and a ProSport, the ProSport was as accurate (not exaggerating) as the other two, it was simpler and lighter and just basically better therefore.

Get a ProSport, a TX200 or a HW77/97 and practice with the same jacket and jumper and you can make the same accuracy as with a recoilless springer provided you shoot enough deliberate training shots. If you must reduce recoil as much as possible, get a 22mm conversion.

The only recoilless springer which would be better than these recoillers would be an over-bore long-stroke Feinwerkbau 300, mostly because the trigger and barrel are superb, but they never made one and if they did it would cost about £1200 and STILL be too heavy, in which case there would be no market for it....

[RichardH]

The only recoilless springer which would be better than these recoillers would be an over-bore long-stroke Feinwerkbau 300, mostly because the trigger and barrel are superb, but they never made one and if they did it would cost about £1200 and STILL be too heavy, in which case there would be no market for it....

Someone really has to do a good job of that one day?

[TonyL]

If you must reduce recoil as much as possible, get a 22mm conversion.

I think a narrow bore gun allied to the damper system as per the old Anschutz 250 match rifle might just do the trick? The natural recoil would be slight to begin with, giving any recoil suppression system an easier task.

I have no first hand experience of the old Anschutz system. I believe that with age there can be leakage issues? But with the materials and techniques available to today's designers, maybe this could be a cost-effective and relatively simple solution?

[Hsing-ee]

I think a narrow bore gun allied to the damper system as per the old Anschutz 250 match rifle might just do the trick? The natural recoil would be slight to begin with, giving any recoil suppression system an easier task.

I have no first hand experience of the old Anschutz system. I believe that with age there can be leakage issues? But with the materials and techniques available to today's designers, maybe this could be a cost-effective and relatively simple solution?

I don't know about the old hydraulics method, but I think it is drifting into the over-complicated zone and certainly requires maintenance. The great thing about the FWB 150/300 is that it is practically maintenance-free, it needs a new buffer on the piston head and a breech seal every six years or so and a new mainspring every so often plus a drop of oil on the linkages now and then. You could shoot millions of pellets through it. I just got an old 300 Junior that has been overhauled and it will shoot 20 pellets into less than a 5 pence at 20 yards with open sights and me at the trigger. They make HWs and TXs feel agricultural, only thing is they do 6fpe normally and 8fpe if you go for a stronger spring. There is some guy in France who machined back the piston head and got one runnng at 11 fpe, but no-one knows if that worked out long term. They need more swept volume.

[StellaArtois Sr]

Such a rifle would be for enthusiasts only. It would be heavy and cumbersome as well as expensive. PCPs are a cheaper solution to this 11 ft lb/recoil less problem. They also tend to have superior triggers.

I hardly think that a PCP would be cheaper unless you go for a Gamo. My Diana 56TH did cost over £500 but a decent PCP would still cost more. Yes they are heavy but then again Springers are for real men.

[Mach 1.5]

Didn't Ken Turner produce one back in 1988 based on what looked like a HW77 and a short catch silencer. And why should they be heavy! With today's lite weight materials I can't see why they should be. Seems years ago a new rifle was appearing nearly every month! Now companies just can't be bothered to invest into something new. Mach 1.5

[Gareth W-B]

I hardly think that a PCP would be cheaper unless you go for a Gamo. My Diana 56TH did cost over £500 but a decent PCP would still cost more. Yes they are heavy but then again Springers are for real men.

Indeed they are, due to the mastering of the recoil. That is why real springer men don't rate recoilless springers, which is why the selling and marketing of the same has ultimately failed every time one has raised its pointless head in the market place, and been dropped from each given manufacturers model range once the pointless penny drops.

Further, and as has been stated above, if you want recoilless, just get a good PCP like an AA S400 or BSA Scorpion, as these will be a mere fraction of the cost of an over-engineered non recoiling springer, and most probably offer five times the reliability and consistency to boot ???

.

[1shot1kill]

To chip in, I have a Fwb 150 & 300s, both shoot Luvly, the 150(Mar 1968!) marginally smoother, I'v got an anschutz lg380 which is better than both of the FWB, best spring gun I'v ever shot, however the Fwb601 ssp rifle beats them all in terms of performance, but to be honest I just enjoy the 150 more. Anything nowadays that did that & made about 10.5ft? I'd be in, but agree, probably not enough of us to make it viable,
J.

[StellaArtois Sr]

Indeed they are, due to the mastering of the recoil. That is why real springer men don't rate recoilless springers, which is why the selling and marketing of the same has ultimately failed every time one has raised its pointless head in the market place, and been dropped from each given manufacturers model range once the pointless penny drops.

Further, and as stated above, if you want recoilless, just get a good PCP like an AA S400 or BSA Scorpion, as these will be a fraction of the cost of an over-engineered non recoiling springer, and most probably five times the reliability and consistency to boot ???

A PCP will never be twice as reliable as a springer let alone 5 times. Every week at the range the phhhht gun boys are moaning the seals are gone or the air has run out or...
I am not in the market for a PCP they just don't do anything for me yet, but if the time comes to buy one I will definitely have a HW100 just because I love Weihrauchs, or the only other ones which seem most reliable would be an Air Arms.
I do like the Diana as it is so different, but in all honesty I prefer the proper Springers. The other thing is I prefer the heavier rifles, I just feel at home with weight, when a rifle is very light I personally don't like it (a bit like my darts really they have to be heavy, hmmmm and come to think of it my women as well )

[TonyL]

Indeed they are, due to the mastering of the recoil. That is why real springer men don't rate recoilless springers, which is why the selling and marketing of the same has ultimately failed every time one has raised its pointless head in the market place, and been dropped from each given manufacturers model range once the pointless penny drops.

.

Much truth spoken here.

The fact is that many people, experienced and new shooters alike, actually like the more animate feel of a recoiling rifle and also relish the challenge of mastering its nature. It's so much more of an intimate affair.

Yes, the more discerning do like to make them more refined, but they're still going to move.

I do also love my 300S, though. Although the main attraction for me is the beautiful precision engineering and pure class of this exquisite machine.