I give up,I REALLY do!

[Geezer]

Nobody would try a land invasion of the USA as half the population is armed.

Baz

Baz,

I'm afraid that is total US NRA propaganda, seductive though it is.

Widespread private availability of firearms has never been a decisive factor in modern warfare. It has, e.g. in some of the 1990s Balkans conflicts or Iraq/Afghanistan helped facilitate an insurgency after defeat, but no more. Maybe (very, very, arguable) in 1776. Not now.

A hundred or more random guys with semi-auto rifles stand absolutely no chance against a trained mechanised infantry company backed up by artillery, helicopter gunships and strike fighters. I see your AR-15s. I raise you 30mm cannon and Hellfire missiles. You are toast.

The same logic was why the British Home Guard were restricted to local static defence. Their purpose was selflessly to absorb enemy fires in order to reduce the damage done to the more skilled and mobile regular army (who might mount a counter-attack), while slightly slowing the enemy's inevitable tactical success unless countered by regulars. Sound, sacrificial, military logic. Also see the Volkssturm. A military minor annoyance, at most, but at huge human cost to the poor sods who joined it.

[Geezer]

Yes, I know, that's why I said "tended" not to look militaristic.

There was also a 'military' model by Hammerli. But by and large all but a handful of spring air rifles have been either break barrels or underlevers and not very military looking.

Danny,

Agreed. Except for the BSA Military Model and the various German 1930s trainers that looked a lot like contemporary service rifles (and the many, many, air pistols that look a bit like a Luger, Frommer, 1911, or whatever).

My wider point, though, is that for the population at large, a gun is a gun is a gun. And guns are scary. Even a 1950s Diana 50M is a "scary gun", not, obviously, an un-scary air rifle.

[andrewM]

Why then do most of the public turn out to cheer the troops on marching through our streets, and meet at the cenotaph. The UK has always been a military nation and we invaded half the world to build the British Empire.

Baz

I don't think this was the point being made by the member who started this link. Yes, we all support our troops and hope they are furnished with the best weapons available. But what is the point of replicating these weapons, which have a particular purpose, in the form of BB airguns, which have another purpose?

If I wish to shoot a military rifle, then there are places to do this.

I quite appreciate Geezer's point, however.

[45flint]

Part of what I like about my new to me Diana 50 is it’s military look. There is absolute nothing wrong with this, just like the Haenel 28 looking like a Luger. Your desire to stay away from military looking airguns is basically saying they are right? It’s called freedom of choice and it’s part of history, nothing wrong with it.

[wild dogman]

I agree with this view. I've always thought it was only a matter of time before old airguns would get swept up in a general antipathy towards modern military-looking airguns, replicas etc - not that I personally have anything whatsoever against them.

In the UK, until 1997 CO2 bulbs were excluded as a power source, whose compactness lends itself to replicas.

When the only way to power an airgun was with a cumbersome pumping arm or spring cocking lever (aside from PCPs, obviously), the guns tended not to look like military guns at all, and were therefore less 'scary' to the ignorant...

I agree

[Jerry Cornelius]

The people who collect this type of rifle - ie replicas of weapons that are designed to kill humans - have a completely different mind-set to those like us. We keep alive a heritage which embraces engineering skills, target shooting, vermin control, field target competition and such like whereas these people are into paramilitary activities, which is not our thing.

Alas, one cannot legislate against this sort of thing but it does have a knock-on effect on those like us, by way of reflection. I sympathise entirely with your viewpoint.

Well off the top of my head I've got a Hakim, a VZ35 (with its bayonet!), a VZ 47, crosman 38T and C, Crosman MkI and MkII , all of which were either made to look like weapons or to train people to use weapons or both, but I can assure you I am not interested in paramilitary activities.

[andrewM]

Well off the top of my head I've got a Hakim, a VZ35 (with its bayonet!), a VZ 47, crosman 38T and C, Crosman MkI and MkII , all of which were either made to look like weapons or to train people to use weapons or both, but I can assure you I am not interested in paramilitary activities.

You make very good points - as does Flint45 - but I think the purpose of the thread was to complain about the BB guns looking like paramilitary weapons, not guns that fire airgun pellets. The latter are accurate, specially designed and highly engineered in most cases (excepting the new Wasps!). Personally, I am rather at a loss to understand why people would want military type weapons in the form of BB guns - a projectile that is not accurate, as I understand it. I submit that we have to look at the issue within this particular focus, per the original post.

[Geezer]

Well off the top of my head I've got a Hakim, a VZ35 (with its bayonet!), a VZ 47, crosman 38T and C, Crosman MkI and MkII , all of which were either made to look like weapons or to train people to use weapons or both, but I can assure you I am not interested in paramilitary activities.

Spot on.

I do remain concerned that the widespread availability of replica airguns (including stuff like very close lookalikes of modern military weapons) poses a threat to the sport.

But not because anyone who owns, say, a CO2 replica Luger thinks they are training for combat, or in how to be a Nazi (if they do, there are bigger issues at play than owning a BB pistol). Or that a responsible owner enjoys a Crosman 761 plinker disguised as an M4.

Rather, because of their utility for low-end criminal stick-up artists and the possible reaction of a sensationalist media. Notwithstanding that a plastic BB pistol is a lot less deadly than a kitchen knife filched from the local corner shop.

This replica thing is though a growing phenomenon in the last 20 or so years - before that, it was Jackals, Gamo 68s, HW45s and not much else. But they have been around for ever in various forms since pre-WW1.

I think in a way there is a continuum that begins with toy (I mean real toy gun, cap gun etc), moves into not very dangerous toy (airsoft, Gat) and then through various gradations of less toy and more dangerous until you end up with Section 1 FAC.

But negatively typecasting any group of legal airgun users/shooters is not cool. I mean, who doesn't hate driven game shooters? Posh tweed twats, most of whom can't hit anything. Oh, hang on, I used to be one.

[iwalk]

I sort of half get the wish to own a realistic looking weapon especially since we are not allowed the real thing however
place yourself in the position of an armed police officer seeing someone with one of these so called "imitation" guns.

Is it, isn't it and would you take a chance?
if it was me. One warning only, one false move then Bam!

I would much rather go to their funeral than have them come to mine!

[Geezer]

I sort of half get the wish to own a realistic looking weapon especially since we are not allowed the real thing however
place yourself in the position of an armed police officer seeing someone with one of these so called "imitation" guns.

Is it, isn't it and would you take a chance?
if it was me. One warning only, one false move then Bam!

I would much rather go to their funeral than have them come to mine!

I do get the point that wandering around (illegally) with, say, an MP-5K replica is particularly stupid. It is.

But, while I have heard this argument a lot, it ultimately assumes that a cop will have a mental database of all the thousands of guns ever made, and will in split-seconds be able to determine the difference between an air rifle and a "real" gun and act accordingly and realise that the suspect is using a BSA Meteor not a stolen deer rifle.

"Ah-ha. It looks like an MP-5, but has the odd vaguely FN FAL-style flash hider normally only seen on the Umarex BB CO2 replica." Never going to happen.

They can't make that judgement. They aren't trained to do so.

Similarly on the possibility that someone has converted what used to be a B2 or a Gat or blank-firer or antique to crudely fire some kind of cartridge round (this is all possible and is known to the police: they are trained on that).

As for an inert, but entirely realistic de-act.... Toast.

Bottom line. Is it apparently a gun? If so, then it is a gun. Could be a Gat or a Glock. Does not matter. Muck about with a gun-like object near armed police and you will get shot unless you do exactly what they tell you to do. Which is how it should be.

[short-carabine]

Nice to see the "shooting community" maintaining a unified front, as ever replete with imaginary scenarios involving police and shooters of replica bb guns. Some people really don't learn a thing from the recent history of knee-jerk gun legislation and DM fuelled outrage. Once they have banned everything else, they will ban your stuff, chaps

[Citizen K]

In my neck of the woods they sell these in the mall type "dads toys" shops:



Shoots steel BBs at around 400 FPS (Co2). The real deal full auto is a prohibited weapon for civvies here.

In my neck of the woods nothing good will happen if you are seen playing with one of these toys outside of a shooting range.

[Benelli B76]

In my neck of the woods they sell these in the mall type "dads toys" shops:



Shoots steel BBs at around 400 FPS (Co2). The real deal full auto is a prohibited weapon for civvies here.

In my neck of the woods nothing good will happen if you are seen playing with one of these toys outside of a shooting range.

I bought one of those over here a few years ago, but quickly sold it on as not impressed with performance. Think it was £150. There were a lot of real AK's available in S.A. after the war in Namibia, my mate had one with the 80 shot drum mag. I believe the chief of police had a chrome plated one !

Baz

[Inspector 71]

I sincerely believe that the proliferation of CO2 powered replica handguns will cause a myriad of public relations and legislative problems for responsible airgunners. I remember being very disappointed when CO2 came off-ticket as a power source.

Every time I see a RFD bag up and hand over a 1911 or 586 to a ned, I cringe and bid farewell to another future day of license free airgun shooting. You just know it's going to get stuffed down the front of some Lonsdale jogging pants.

For me, the more an air pistol looks like an air pistol the better and single shot is a boon for the same reason.

[Mr. Gen]

Wake up guys, military replicas, CO2 pistols. bb guns - these are the sport now. without these providing momentum to the industry traditional airguns in general would stagnate.

Defend the entire sport and industry, dont let the antis divide you.