Advice re fitting scope rail to pre-war BSA

[jirushi]

Hi,

I'm the proud owner of a BSA Standard Pattern .22 (1925/26) and a nicely restored Improved Model D Light Model .177 (1913/14).
The Standard Pattern came in a well made reproduction case (many thanks to Mac). My interest in vintage airguns started when my former landlord in Devon showed his Webley Serive Rifle Mk2 to me, which he used a long time ago when he was farming in Derbyshire. I first thought: what the hell is that piece of old metal. But I soon discovered its beauty and then I was hooked. I do like my modern springers and pcp's too btw. My greatest pride being a BSA Techstar; a high power mmc model, designed by John Bowkett for the American market. It gives 30 consistent shots at 29 ft/lbs in .22. I am straying off topic now.

So what I would like to share with you is my idea to fit a scope rail on the Improved Model D Light Model. Quite a few people will disapprove of this. I am prepared to get a few "don't do it, you pagan" 's. But I know that this has been done before, and I am just very curious to know what kind of results I could get accuracy wise from this 1913/14 piece of quality engineering. Using the open sights, I can achieve decent groups at 15/20 yards, but it would be interesting to prove just how very accurate it is at bigger distances. A telescopic sight will make that a lot easier. The gun shoots ever so smooth, at about 500 fps with JSB Exact 8.44 gr. (The Standard Pattern needs a bit of work, it is harsh and it twangs). As the Improved Model D Light Model has been restored and re-blued, I think it is not a bad candidate to do an experiment with.

So, has anyone done this before? I think that welding would be the way to go.

Many thanks, Louis
Ps. The last photo is me with an over the date beer can target.

[andrewM]

A very interesting thread and you seem to have two first class rifles there, well looked after.

As Lakey remarked here, sometime ago, PCPs are without souls. Yours is of exceptional power, however, so clearly it has a purpose, probably to shoot at much greater ranges than would be possible with a sub 12ft lbs rifle. On the other hand, anyone can hit the centre of the target with a PCP. Almost no skill is required if a rest is employed.

Once one gets to appreciate the engineering within the springer, I have found that it is difficult to revert to the pcp - and I am without much technical ability. The former stands out, head and shoulders over the latter. I have returned to the sport after many years and much prefer, these days, the springer. There is more satisfaction using it. In turn, I became so impressed with the abilities of the old BSA Standard, that I purchased last year a 1922 version, with which I am delighted. This is one of the best air rifles ever produced, in my view, and far exceeds many of the air rifles that were produced up until the late '70s and even beyond in some instances. That said, they all seem to be a little different, each with their own personalities, which one has to learn.

A number of people have already added scopes to these rifles. I have seen many photographs posted here, not least, from memory, in Edbear's magnificent collection - one or two of which, I recall, had scopes. Some, I suspect, had them fitted before WW2 but not in all instances. Despite the view of the purists, I see no reason why these rifles should not be improved. After all, they are continuously being tinkered with and improved, with new springs, pistons, washers and so on being fitted. Ideally, one would seek a period scope - they are available. In addition, one would have very carefully to engineer the fitting to ensure a tasteful and acceptable mount, probably with a recoil arrestor.

Doubtless advice is available here - the members are most helpful - and there might be those who read this thread who can advise how their scope has been fitted. Many are capable engineers. Certainly, there are some substantial collectors of these rifles, some with scopes.

Lakey, if he reads this, might have a view.

I would be most interested to know how you get on and what sort of groupings you can achieve with a scope.

[45flint]

I like Andrew purchased a 1924 BSA Standard last year and to my delight found out how truly special these rifles are. It amazes me that they were so well made that they can compete with any rifle I own and their open sights may have no equal. I have taken some of my classic air guns and scoped them to see what they can do. The most recent is my 1949 Crosman Town and Country, a American Classic. But my criteria for scoping any classic is doing it without any permanent alteration. Cause what I am finding is yes, I like certain aspects of a scope but is it really that much more accurate than the aperature sight? I could not bear to alter such a classic and every time I hold it I like stepping back in time.

Good luck but given my experience with the BSA open sight, I not sure it can be improved by anything?

Awesome hat by the way!

[Shed tuner]

try a peepsight / diopter for increased accuracy whilst keeping things contemporary ?

[averageplinker]

How about finding an engineer who can make a scope rail in 2 parts that clamps around the barrel and try a pistol scope on it? If it was made well it should not mark the barrel too much/at all and would be completely reversible!

[Lakey]

Interesting thread.
I too would try fitting an aperture sight onto the gun, and try that out before fitting a scope ramp.

That said, I have two BSA's in my collection with scope ramps fitted. One gun sports a Parker Hale, once piece scope ramp, that has been screwed to the compression cylinder. The other is a flat steel plate that has been spot welded ( and screwed) to the cylinder and has the step of the higher trigger block to act as a scope stop. It looks as if someone has added blobs of weld ( or they could be shortened screw shanks) to the top of the cylinder, then further welded the scope ramp to them? Both are effective, but neither are reversible.

I had thought of possibly fitting another scope ramp to another one of my guns ( only an average to bad condition gun - would never do it to a good condition gun) , and thought you might be able to bond a closely fitting scope ramp, with a high modular silicon sealant.
I think if you degreased the area well enough, you would have enough bonding power to safely support a small scope, and I reckon that would be fully reversible if you decided to change your mind at any time.

NOW I HAVEN'T TESTED MY THEORY OUT, but if the correct ramp was fitted to the cylinder, and enough silicon ( high shore rating ) was used, it would damage a patinated finish to much, and you would have in effect a primitive "Dampa Mount" idea to further protect the scopes internals. Maybe fit a nice early weaver scope, as their long thin profile wouldn't look out of place on a pre-war BSA.

Just my thoughts........



Lakey

[slow_runner]

Hi,

I'm the proud owner of a BSA Standard Pattern .22 (1925/26) and a nicely restored Improved Model D Light Model .177 (1913/14).
The Standard Pattern came in a well made reproduction case (many thanks to Mac). .

So what I would like to share with you is my idea to fit a scope rail on the Improved Model D Light Model. Quite a few people will disapprove of this. I am prepared to get a few "don't do it, you pagan" 's. But I know that this has been done before, and I am just very curious to know what kind of results I could get accuracy wise from this 1913/14 piece of quality engineering.

Hello Louis, check out this solution created for Trevors BSA.
See it on Flickr.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tjm_45k/

It allows the BSA to be put back to original with no effect to the originality of the BSA

[frakor]

This is my "vintage sniper"

There are 2 grooves milled into the main cylinder, only did this because the barrel and cylinder wher badly corroded on the inside and beyond repair.




----------------------------
Frank

[Muskett]

This is my "vintage sniper"

There are 2 grooves milled into the main cylinder, only did this because the barrel and cylinder wher badly corroded on the inside and beyond repair.




----------------------------
Frank

frakor's vintage sniper is my preferred way of conversion of these old rifles. The "long" style period scope on permanent made and fixed scope mounts.
The issue is to use old style scope; old style base and mounts.
In my experience the result only gives minor improvement in sight picture over the open sights. FOV with these old scopes are usually pretty narrow and the cross hairs very thin. They won't turn groups from 1/2" to pellet on pellet at range.

Just putting a modern scope on an old vintage only proves what the particular rifle can do with no sight error. The sight doesn't make them more accurate.

Lastly, for most spring rifles they all are badly behaved when tide to the benchrest. The spring makes them "live" rather than "dead" like PCPs.

Nice idea but in practice these old rifle shoot best standing with their iron sights. Practice with them and they will hold it there. Take them beyond their natural ability and it gets disappointing. We have all tried and there is a hobby in trying to get rifles to shoot beyond the farmyard. To do that really requires a mousetrap that is designed to do so, which generally means loads of weight and spring, port, compression, tuned to achieve the end. Just the way it is.

I knew someone who could bring down a wood pigeon in flight with one of these pre war BSA's. Close range and all in the swing. No one had told him it couldn't be done!

[Shed tuner]

Hello Louis, check out this solution created for Trevors BSA.
See it on Flickr.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tjm_45k/

It allows the BSA to be put back to original with no effect to the originality of the BSA

now that's the best solution to maintain originality....

[Garvin]

Hello Louis, check out this solution created for Trevors BSA.
See it on Flickr.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tjm_45k/

It allows the BSA to be put back to original with no effect to the originality of the BSA

What a great solution! It looks really nice too - very attractive the way it's tapered so as not to obstruct the cocking slot. You could imagine this being sold as an add-on for new rifles, had scopes been as popular then as they are now.

[andrewM]

What a great solution! It looks really nice too - very attractive the way it's tapered so as not to obstruct the cocking slot. You could imagine this being sold as an add-on for new rifles, had scopes been as popular then as they are now.

Magnificent engineering and innovation combined and some splendid rifles there, too. Equally impressive were the period scopes.

I would be rather keen to submit mine for the same treatment, if someone was prepared to do it.

[jirushi]

+ 1 for a Trevor scope holder haha.
I am amazed by all the great ideas that have been put into practice.
Will start looking for someone who can make something like that.
Then I could perhaps start a business. Just joking of course.
Trevor's solution takes my worries away of having to irreversibly modify my antique guns.

[daveh]

Hi All , I have a 1909 Improved Model D to which aprevious ownerhas silver soldered or braised asmall bar profiled to mimic the profile of milled slots. I have fitted an old Diana x4 scope andthe setup works very well. If anyone is interested I can email photos. Regards Daveh

[Josie & John]

Hello Louis, check out this solution created for Trevors BSA.
See it on Flickr.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tjm_45k/

It allows the BSA to be put back to original with no effect to the originality of the BSA

I agree - this is the most sympathetic way of mounting a scope that I have seen. I once bought an early 1920s No 2 Standard with visible etching, where some former owner had mounted a scope ramp over the etching. Truly sacrilegious in my view. To cap it off, the ramp was not really strong enough to handle a recoiling scope for more than a few shots.

I do quite like this set up though as it appears to be completely reversible.

John