Ken Turner Modified CZ Pistol Value

[nurek]

A friend of mine has a Ken Turner modified CZ260 pistol and he’s looking for a valuation. My friend is connected to Air Arms but has not joined this forum yet and has asked me for help valuing it. I like Ken Turner stuff but am no expert on pistols, so would like to ask for your advice.

Here are some pictures of the Pistol:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1W3q...ew?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1h4z...ew?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SSs...ew?usp=sharing

Here is a letter from Ken Turner to Bill Sanders of Air Arms discussing modifications (I also have a copy of the drawing):

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MUN...ew?usp=sharing

I believe that this pistol was being adapted by Bill Sanders to add an affordable target pistol to the Air Arms range and Bill went to CZ to see if one of their pistols can be rebranded/redesigned just like the CZ200 air rifle was.

The pistol has made an appearance at a shooting show and here is a post discussing it in 2006:

http://www.airgunbbs.com/showthread....ighlight=cz260

However, that pistol has never made it into Air Arms line-up and instead they have chosen another Czech pistol, the Alfa Proj:

http://www.alfa-proj.cz/en/products/...d-rifles-alfa/

It seems like the CZ260 was marketed for a short while in the US by CZ:

http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?t=25268

RRP was around 600USD (this is the only link to price I could find, it’s no longer sold, the first link also mentions £300 in the first post).

Now my thoughts on valuation, if there was no paperwork with it and it was just a CZ pistol it would be worth around £200-300. £200 as normally it’s worth around 60% of new, but as it’s no longer made it could be worth a little more.

As there is paperwork from Ken Turner and the Bill Sanders connection, I reckon it’s worth double that, so around £400 to £600 which would be similar to what the Air Arms PP1 pistol sells for.

I’d be grateful for any suggestions or thoughts.

Thank you!

[nurek]

Any suggestions? I'd be grateful for any thoughts...

[Geezer]

One-offs and prototypes are really hard to value.

Often when offered for sale they prove to be worth less than many expect. Just because something is rare or a unique factory experimental minor variation does not always have collectors rushing to spend big bucks.

I think that may be the case here - it's a regular entry-level 10M pistol that Ken T modified (with provenance, which is nice) but that did not go into production. You have to wonder how many collectors would feel a strong need to add that to their collection that would justify a high price.

Ultimately, the only way of knowing, in a case like this, is to put it on sale.

[master_shriller]

I had the 1st working prototype Theoben gas ram rifle, in .20 and utilising an Original 45 barrel assembly including the breech block.

It had a hand carved stock made of mahogany by Ben Taylor, there were aluminium plates glued and screwed to the front of the stock to reinforce it where the front action fixing screws went through, this was done after the front of the stock snapped clean off due to a very hard cocking action when the ram was pumped right up during testing.

Still wearing an old Tasco scope fitted with 2 sets of double screw mounts to try and stop scope creep.

It came with a letter of provenance front Ben.

Bought from Ben for £350 IIRC, sold to a collector for £450, less sales commission, so I think I just about broke even.

Maybe I shouldn't have let it go at such a low price, who knows? But I think it shows that some unique airguns may not be worth as much as you would think.

[Inspector 71]

So a stock CZ pistol apart from a minor mod by Ken Turner who , as far as I now, has not been appointed to any genius hall of fame.

As said above - one offs are not that collectable.

[nurek]

[...] by Ken Turner who , as far as I now, has not been appointed to any genius hall of fame. [...]

Not sure how much you know about Ken Turner, but I consider someone who effectively came up with the the ideas of spring gun tuning that are used now (delrin bearings, short stroking, sleeving, short transfer ports, conical pistons etc.) back in 1980's, designed the Venom Mach 1 trigger and some of the most successful spring airguns in the world (Air Arms TX200, ProSport) a very clever man... Maybe do your research before making statements like this?

[nurek]

Thank you Geezer and master_shriller for your replies.

[gingernut]

Not sure how much you know about Ken Turner, but I consider someone who effectively came up with the the ideas of spring gun tuning that are used now (delrin bearings, short stroking, sleeving, short transfer ports, conical pistons etc.) back in 1980's, designed the Venom Mach 1 trigger and some of the most successful spring airguns in the world (Air Arms TX200, ProSport) a very clever man... Maybe do your research before making statements like this?

Quite!
The problem here is not Ken Turner but the pistol which is not mainstream and therefore a bit of a punt for a purchaser.

[nurek]

Quite!
The problem here is not Ken Turner but the pistol which is not mainstream and therefore a bit of a punt for a purchaser.

You're spot on there!

If it was made from scratch by Ken I'd have a good idea of value of it, but it's an unusual target pistol (not many CZ260 I have seen) and then modified... hence asking for an opinion here.

[Rotherham Owl]

So a stock CZ pistol apart from a minor mod by Ken Turner who , as far as I now, has not been appointed to any genius hall of fame.

As said above - one offs are not that collectable.

But if there was an air rifle pioneers hall of fame he would be in it mate. The guy was a genius.

IMO you aright that the fact it is a one off doesn't demand much of a premium though.

Although the Ken Turner connection may add a bit of a premium the connection to Bill Sanders is a tenuous one.

I reckon £300 would be about right.

[Inspector 71]

Not sure how much you know about Ken Turner, but I consider someone who effectively came up with the the ideas of spring gun tuning that are used now (delrin bearings, short stroking, sleeving, short transfer ports, conical pistons etc.) back in 1980's, designed the Venom Mach 1 trigger and some of the most successful spring airguns in the world (Air Arms TX200, ProSport) a very clever man... Maybe do your research before making statements like this?

I stand my comments. If not, I wouldn't have made them. Ken Turner is not a genius. Making improvements to an extremely simple spring piston mechanism for air guns does not award affiliation to the list of people who have made a true difference to our world. Jenner, Edison, Ford, Jobs, Sinclair, Röntgen et all. We are talking about an off the shelf Czech air pistol that some guy got 6 ft/lbs from. Get real nurek.

[nurek]

I stand my comments. If not, I wouldn't have made them. Ken Turner is not a genius. Making improvements to an extremely simple spring piston mechanism for air guns does not award affiliation to the list of people who have made a true difference to our world. Jenner, Edison, Ford, Jobs, Sinclair, Röntgen et all. We are talking about an off the shelf Czech air pistol that some guy got 6 ft/lbs from. Get real nurek.

This is an airgun forum and we're talking about airguns. As far as airguns/machining are concerned he is a genius, as far as physics, medicine or any other science, what does it matter? It's AirgunBBS... Get real yourself