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Thread: Fixed barrel springers, will there ever be a better setup than the sliding breech

  1. #31
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    With regards to the best breech seal arrangement, for me it has to be the conical seal a la FWB 300. I think in modern terms the BAM underlevers might use this too (please correct me if I'm wrong)

    As much as it pains me to speak badly of my TX200, the double o-ring setup is woeful. Fine for the HC that I only use occasionally, but on my full length which I use 3 or 4 times a week they were constantly giving issues

  2. #32
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    The Whiscombe side lever set up is very good, no bear trap issues at all, direct loading into the barrel, loads of space for someone with big fingers.

    Here is what it looks like:

    https://goo.gl/images/eeRDVs

    This is also favoured on the PCPs...

    Best set up there is?

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooper_dan View Post
    With regards to the best breech seal arrangement, for me it has to be the conical seal a la FWB 300. I think in modern terms the BAM underlevers might use this too (please correct me if I'm wrong)

    As much as it pains me to speak badly of my TX200, the double o-ring setup is woeful. Fine for the HC that I only use occasionally, but on my full length which I use 3 or 4 times a week they were constantly giving issues
    Does your full length TX have a tight cocking shoe?
    The seal's last longer with the correct amount of play in the shoe

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barryg View Post
    Does your full length TX have a tight cocking shoe?
    The seal's last longer with the correct amount of play in the shoe
    Opposite problem. Too much play. With 2 fresh o-rings it needs 2 shims to seal properly and bring the power up. After a few months (I would guess 3-4k pellets) power starts dropping off again.
    Changed to a one piece seal like the weihrauch now. Hopefully it does better

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooper_dan View Post
    Opposite problem. Too much play. With 2 fresh o-rings it needs 2 shims to seal properly and bring the power up. After a few months (I would guess 3-4k pellets) power starts dropping off again.
    Changed to a one piece seal like the weihrauch now. Hopefully it does better
    I would have thought that AA machining would be uniform, perhaps its not, your HW seal may have sorted the problem but if you do go back to the factory seals it is easy to check if its right, first check with some feeler gages that the gap on the shoe is 25 thou/0.6mm then smear some grease on the breech close the lever and open it and look to see if you have a even seal mark ( remember the mark will get wider when the gun is fired as the tube moves forward squashing the seal more) this is quite a reliable way to check if the breech seal is leaking and the shoe gap is the right size






  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyL View Post
    I wonder what type of barrel on a break barrel would gnash teeth and noses better? Short and stumpy with a large diameter shroud / silencer or a long, slim item like the 35 Export?
    Hw35 barrel would smack you on the back of the head as it bends right round

  7. #37
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    Didn't Hitler's people dream one up like that that could shoot round corners?

    Well, for a few shots anyway!
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyL View Post
    Didn't Hitler's people dream one up like that that could shoot round corners?

    Well, for a few shots anyway!
    Yes




    Krummlauf Curved Barrel on an StG-44

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSsFiS2Voxg

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyL View Post
    Didn't Hitler's people dream one up like that that could shoot round corners?

    Well, for a few shots anyway!
    The Krummlauf. Or, more correctly, the Vorsatz J (or I) and Vorstaz Pz. Originally a way (Pz = Panzer, 90 degree bend) of letting tank crews engage infantry without sticking their heads above the open hatch. Also developed (I or J, 30 degree bend) for infantry in trench or urban warfare.

    Not sure it ever saw service. Never replicated by any other army. Which tells you something about its utility, 72 years later.

    Back on topic. Tap-loader, anyone? Surely it's not just me?

  10. #40
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    Back on topic. Tap-loader, anyone? Surely it's not just me?
    Yep, it's just you.

    Any system where the pellet isn't seated in the barrel = Pants.

    And I'm including the Steyr 5 in that.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rickenbacker View Post
    Yep, it's just you.

    Any system where the pellet isn't seated in the barrel = Pants.

    And I'm including the Steyr 5 in that.
    I have a couple of accurate pistols that are gate loaders, one of them like the Steyr, and also a Hammerli tap-loader rifle that was egregiously more accurate than the others of its time. I am going to test it with modern pellets once I have overhauled it and got the odd size scope mounts it needs from the post office, where I get most of my kit.

    I also have an Original 50 which has been converted by an amateur to direct-breech loading, but it has been done rather imperfectly, giving 2 fpe which I do not think is an improvement on the original Original Diana power. I have yet to strip it to see how it has been achieved, I think it might have been by putting a huge lump of metal in front of the piston which slides back and forth. This combines a shorter stroke with a massively long transfer port.

    Overall, I don't like non-direct-loading systems though, they are just not robust enough - how can it be consistent?

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooper_dan View Post
    Opposite problem. Too much play. With 2 fresh o-rings it needs 2 shims to seal properly and bring the power up. After a few months (I would guess 3-4k pellets) power starts dropping off again.
    Changed to a one piece seal like the weihrauch now. Hopefully it does better
    I solved my o-ring wear by making sure there's not too much crush. With the factory shoe, there is usually never too much crush, so I get an over sized tool steel shoe from Maccari. When the lever gets near the detent you will feel the seals start to touch and squish as you pop into the detent. I just file a tiny bit at a time until I feel the seals touch the breech just as the arm touches the detent ball. My seals last for a long time and I'm confident they're sealing with single digit velocity spreads. While not perfect, the o-ring set up does the job, in most cases. A friend has a TX that takes 2 full seals and one sanded down to half. I found this by watching him shoot and seeing the slop. Strange part is the gun was and still is very accurate.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hsing-ee View Post
    I have a couple of accurate pistols that are gate loaders, one of them like the Steyr, and also a Hammerli tap-loader rifle that was egregiously more accurate than the others of its time. I am going to test it with modern pellets once I have overhauled it and got the odd size scope mounts it needs from the post office, where I get most of my kit.

    I also have an Original 50 which has been converted by an amateur to direct-breech loading, but it has been done rather imperfectly, giving 2 fpe which I do not think is an improvement on the original Original Diana power. I have yet to strip it to see how it has been achieved, I think it might have been by putting a huge lump of metal in front of the piston which slides back and forth. This combines a shorter stroke with a massively long transfer port.

    Overall, I don't like non-direct-loading systems though, they are just not robust enough - how can it be consistent?
    To be fair, I think Geezer is right about a well fitted and fettled loading tap being a wonderful thing... however, I've used a lot more bad ones than wonderfully good ones. And with modern production methods being what they are (more automation - less skilled human involvement), I wonder if a new tap-loader would be viable... is it possible with modern machinery/materials? Or is it just too tricky to get the thing perfectly sealed and aligned every time...?

    Your Mod. 50 sounds like an interesting project, Ali.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rickenbacker View Post
    To be fair, I think Geezer is right about a well fitted and fettled loading tap being a wonderful thing... however, I've used a lot more bad ones than wonderfully good ones. And with modern production methods being what they are (more automation - less skilled human involvement), I wonder if a new tap-loader would be viable... is it possible with modern machinery/materials? Or is it just too tricky to get the thing perfectly sealed and aligned every time...?

    Your Mod. 50 sounds like an interesting project, Ali.
    Thank you.

    Indeed, there is no way it would be economic to make a well-made taploader now to pre-WWII standards if it involved any hand-fitting. It would cost more than, say, a sliding breech, and not perform as well.

    Maybe there is some theoretical way of making one using ultra-precise computerised machinery from the space industry, without the hand-fitting. Or 3D printing, or nanotechnology or some other thing I don't understand. But still not economically. And the sliding breech would still be more efficient.

    The last vaguely good taploaders were, IMHO, the 1980s Air Arms Camargue/Khamsin. And they weren't cheap, selling for more than an FWB Sport or HW77 (and the Sport or 77 were the 1980s FT champs, not the AAs).

  15. #45
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    Although less efficient than a sliding comp tube rifle, and potentially not as accurate, one absolutely wonderful thing about those tap loaders is the ease and safety.

    Once, at one of the Bashes, I had a go with various tap loaders. And the speed and ease of loading was great. From a safety point of view, brilliant.....for the first few shots, having been conditioned to safe handling practices with break barrels and slidy guns, I was holding the under (or side) lever. Once re-conditioned though, it was great.....cock gun, return lever, flick the tap, drop a pellet in, close tap and shoot. Takes far longer to describe than to do.

    And the one that I simply MUST have is one of the Lincoln Jeffries / BSA pre-war underlevers. I've loved every single one that I've tried.

    One day, one day........
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