Problem with Original 45 - advice please!

[andrewM]

I have an unexpected problem with my Original 45, as bought in the early '80s. These rifles, in my opinion, are the equal of the FWB. Firing it the other day, it accidentally discharged itself as I snapped the barrel back into position. This it continued to do consistently for several shots until I ceased. I am presuming that the small jolt from the barrel being placed back into the firing position (via the ball-bearing jumping the protruding catch to engage the barrel) caused the rifle to fire. However, I also noticed a failure of the safety catch to engage and the rifle seemed to discharge itself without restriction from the safety catch mechanism.

I have tried tightening (and loosening) the trigger screw situated immediately behind the trigger, by one complete revolution in each direction but to no effect.

Perhaps there is some wear after the usage which, perhaps, is around 5-10,000 shots, probably closer to 10k but difficult to estimate.

Earlier in the day, after the introduction of perhaps too much neatsfoot, a few days previously, there were some loud diesel cracks which, just possibly, might have accentuated an existing weakness.

Can anyone advise the problem and solution?

Many thanks.

[Hsing-ee]

You are going to have to strip it down and replace whatever worn or broken parts have caused this situation. It's very ill-advised to continue using any kind of gun that discharges of its own accord, I am surprised you persisted. There may be issues with the piston rod, the sears, springs in the trigger mechanism or with lubrication. The dieselling, if strong enough, may have forced the piston back hard and the latch may have damaged the sear/bent.

You will need a spring compressor as the mainspring is under some tension on this rifle.

Parts diagram:

https://www.gunspares.co.uk/showcatimage.asp?id=24388

[andrewM]

Thank you - a very helpful reply Hsing-ee. I might mention that I only persisted with several further shots under careful conditions, ie pointing the gun in such a direction that no harm could be done. You might be correct about the dieseling. I used neatsfoot compound, under the impression that this dieselled rather less than ordinary oils but the crack was loud and it blew some gunk down the barrel, which I thought was old solidified oil fragments from the past.

[crowbar]

Check the bolt that screws into the action and the stock bolt screws into , this bolt has a guide which locates
in a slot in the trigger sleeve and can bind so the trigger does not set and will discharge with the jolt
of closing the barrel .

[Big Seth]

I have an unexpected problem with my Original 45, as bought in the early '80s. These rifles, in my opinion, are the equal of the FWB. Firing it the other day, it accidentally discharged itself as I snapped the barrel back into position. This it continued to do consistently for several shots until I ceased. I am presuming that the small jolt from the barrel being placed back into the firing position (via the ball-bearing jumping the protruding catch to engage the barrel) caused the rifle to fire. However, I also noticed a failure of the safety catch to engage and the rifle seemed to discharge itself without restriction from the safety catch mechanism.

I have tried tightening (and loosening) the trigger screw situated immediately behind the trigger, by one complete revolution in each direction but to no effect.

Perhaps there is some wear after the usage which, perhaps, is around 5-10,000 shots, probably closer to 10k but difficult to estimate.

Earlier in the day, after the introduction of perhaps too much neatsfoot, a few days previously, there were some loud diesel cracks which, just possibly, might have accentuated an existing weakness.

Can anyone advise the problem and solution?

Many thanks.

They may be a match for a FWB when they work but I have owned two O45's and they both ended up with exactly the fault that you described. I suspect many other O45's fail at around a similar mileage due to poor materials in manufacture..?

[the green man]

the is a little like sledge that's on the cocking arm make sure its in places it happen to me

[Drew451]

Had the same problem with one of mine and couldn't determine the cause. It used to discharge when the barrel closed or when the safety was clicked off. As others say- there could be various causes but sear wear was my best guess . As the rifle had a bit of damage in another area I broke it for spares.
I have had very well used 45s and a quite tired 50 T01 which have operated perfectly.

[PCPShooter]

Mine that did that required new sear
It wasn’t properly hardened apparently (diagnosed by v Mach)
I bought some of the last spares from Chambers years back, there are a couple of variations of the triggers in 45s make sure you get the right spare part, if you still can -

[andrewM]

Thank you very much, everyone, for your most valuable advice. I thought my problem was a 'one off' but it seems that quite a number of other people have experienced the same problem, judging from these posts. I must say that the rifle is still performing at the same rate as it did out of the box so the spring must be of exceptional engineering origin. On the other hand, there seems to be engineering weakness elsewhere to have caused this; perhaps not so good as the FWB after all (but saying that is akin to opening the equivalent of the Mk3 v Airsporter debate), although the latter has its problems with the safety catch.

I will, of course, report back once I get to the bottom of it.

[andrewM]

It seems the problem with this rifle has been solved and I am reporting back, as I promised. I took the rifle to Protek in Bognor Regis to inspect and they report as follows:

"A circlip - or actually an 'e clip' was missing from the sear axis pin. the pin had come out partially but was still held in by the stock. Repositioning the pin through both sides of the frame made the rifle shoot properly again. I have found an e-clip but it is a little large. I have squeezed it very slightly and the pin does not seem as if it will come out easily but really needs a smaller e-clip in the long run to be certain of its long term use. I have not got any smaller e clips. The e clip used on the trigger axis pin is larger by the way. "

That sounds simple enough and it seems that others have also had similar problems from the correspondence this has generated. This might be the solution for them too, or it could be the trigger axis pin if not the sear axis pin.

[deejayuu]

Thanks for sharing. Glad it's fixed.

[jonnyone]

It seems the problem with this rifle has been solved and I am reporting back, as I promised. I took the rifle to Protek in Bognor Regis to inspect and they report as follows:

"A circlip - or actually an 'e clip' was missing from the sear axis pin. the pin had come out partially but was still held in by the stock. Repositioning the pin through both sides of the frame made the rifle shoot properly again. I have found an e-clip but it is a little large. I have squeezed it very slightly and the pin does not seem as if it will come out easily but really needs a smaller e-clip in the long run to be certain of its long term use. I have not got any smaller e clips. The e clip used on the trigger axis pin is larger by the way. "

That sounds simple enough and it seems that others have also had similar problems from the correspondence this has generated. This might be the solution for them too, or it could be the trigger axis pin if not the sear axis pin.

Hiya Andrew,
Its really helpful people like yourself sharing information on the cure to an issue as sharing that information can potentially save others a lot of hassle. I read with interest your reply as last night whilst stripping down an old 45 this very circlip pinged off and went flying across the shed never to be seen again

And the 50T01 that was next stripped had it's circlip missing- so thats two that I need to order!

Hope your 45 now behaves

Dave

[andrewM]

Thanks Johnnyone! I find this forum most useful for sounding out problems and receiving feedback. I then deposit the subject rifle with Protek and make a point of informing readers of the diagnosis and solution. My own skills are poor in this department but that does not mean I do not take a careful interest in the technical activity! Protek, meanwhile, only deal with airguns, so that is their single focus.

It might be worth your while trying to find the circlips, assuming they were in working order, as finding individual replacements rather than bulk replacements could be difficult.

Meanwhile, I have found what seems to be a near mint 45 in .22 and will travel to inspect it next week with a view to purchase. I gather it was made in 1984. This will complement my .177, which I will collect next week from the repair bench. I have always found these to be first class rifles and, I gather, the leather washers were amongst the last used, given the manufacturers had moved to synthetic. On the other hand, I think they had produced these washers at their best and they worked well. It seems they need the very minimum of lubrication, unlike, for example, the old Mk3 or Airsporters, which almost required oil as part of the firing cycle.

This collecting thing is rather dangerous and I think I must try to call a halt at about 10 rifles. That said, I am nearly persuaded to try a modern springer to see if there is much difference. I suspect there is little. When I showed a friend my recently purchased FWB 127, he thought it was as good as and perhaps better than his HW97. I suppose there is so much that can be invented in the process and then it becomes rather difficult to improve, other than via the trigger or balance or, perhaps, recoil.

I am also tempted by the Anchutz 335, of which I have read good things.

[jonnyone]

Thanks Johnnyone! I find this forum most useful for sounding out problems and receiving feedback. I then deposit the subject rifle with Protek and make a point of informing readers of the diagnosis and solution. My own skills are poor in this department but that does not mean I do not take a careful interest in the technical activity! Protek, meanwhile, only deal with airguns, so that is their single focus.

It might be worth your while trying to find the circlips, assuming they were in working order, as finding individual replacements rather than bulk replacements could be difficult.

Meanwhile, I have found what seems to be a near mint 45 in .22 and will travel to inspect it next week with a view to purchase. I gather it was made in 1984. This will complement my .177, which I will collect next week from the repair bench. I have always found these to be first class rifles and, I gather, the leather washers were amongst the last used, given the manufacturers had moved to synthetic. On the other hand, I think they had produced these washers at their best and they worked well. It seems they need the very minimum of lubrication, unlike, for example, the old Mk3 or Airsporters, which almost required oil as part of the firing cycle.

This collecting thing is rather dangerous and I think I must try to call a halt at about 10 rifles. That said, I am nearly persuaded to try a modern springer to see if there is much difference. I suspect there is little. When I showed a friend my recently purchased FWB 127, he thought it was as good as and perhaps better than his HW97. I suppose there is so much that can be invented in the process and then it becomes rather difficult to improve, other than via the trigger or balance or, perhaps, recoil.

I am also tempted by the Anchutz 335, of which I have read good things.

Afternoon Andrew,
yes feeding back is good and very useful. A ready supply of those circlips should be Chambers or possibly Knibbs. I'm hoping to place an order a bit later. For what they are they are a bit on the expensive side but on other hand to have an outlet sit on items that may or may not get bought or be much demand for is undoubtedly not a cheap process and they want to see a return on these items. Especially for guns no longer in production.

Your discovery of a near mint example is excellent news. With the years rolling on and some of these older guns putting in the miles (shooting wise) a nice clean example can be hard to find- even on guns that were relatively popular back in the day. As you rightly say they are first class rifles and the care and attention given in their manufacture is evident when you strip them down. The leather washers are pretty good but I'm not a huge fan of them and try and change them for synthetic whenever possible. That said if not broke then don't fix it and I have a couple of very clean and well performing examples I will leave well alone. Walters in his book is bemused by Diana's choice to go with leather when others within the range had already gone the synthetic route. As indeed almost all manufacturers had by then. Only Diana know that answer and as Walters also conjectured one can only guess at what the gun is capable of if it has a decent parachute type synthetic washer.

Collecting is indeed a very addictive activity. Having set my goal to pick up only those German sporting rifles that I couldnt afford as a kid, I have gone way past that on my journey. Strayed way off the path and along a few blind alleys too! The FWB Sport is indeed a fine rifle as you already know. You wont go far wrong with a 335 either- but beware of over springing them as the stock fixing lugs have a rather anti social habit of departing from the compression cylinder.

Dave