Why I am Beginning To Change My Mind About Sub12 Hunting

[RichardH]

Airguns or certainly off ticket ones aren't any more powerful than they were 30 years ago

A power level that was suitable for rabbits at 25 yards then hasn't actually changed, new technology brings more accuracy which has encouraged people to push and push distances to in some cases stupid levels and means the viability of the whole thing has to be called into question.

Whenever this subject comes up the argument to make vermin control FAC only just becomes clearer.

[Jonjon79]

That's nothing wrong with taking small game and vermin with .177 sub 12.

Like with everything, you just work within the limitations.

[Barryg]

Lots of different opinions but the facts are still the same, shot placement is luck because you can't predict when a animal is going to move, here are some wild rabbits and even when they are still you don't know when they are going to shake their head and scratch and at 30 yards there are also other factors to consider, think how far a rabbit can move from the time you pull the trigger.
10.5-11 ft/lbs is for fun plinking and competitions, shooting live animals is controversial when you have to rely on luck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1D_h...ature=youtu.be

[TonyL]

I always thought that the attraction was with the challenge and fieldcraft required.

I don't hunt these days but I did for many years and in all that time I never yearned for more power.

Back in the early 80s my FWB 127 was my "go to" hunting rifle and we cleanly despatched many rabbits, rats and pigeon plus a few squirrels. When I got it chrono'd it was doing 9.5ft.lbs.

[Muskett]

But we are not relying on absolute luck. Nor are we relying on absolute certainty. Is there anything in life that doesn't have some luck involved, or anything often with absolute certainty? Think the latter is death and taxes.

Shooting animals is not controversial when done responsibly. In fact its very normal, its more weird to think otherwise. Bar one religion, there are few cultures that do not include other animals as part of natures bounty to exploit, or to control if a pest. How achieved, and to what level, with even what conservation to include, is part of a huge debate. But the management, conservation, and the bounty I take, is to me absolutely fine and very normal. I'm comfortable with it, and my dinner better for it

[Pelletpinger]

Lots of different opinions but the facts are still the same, shot placement is luck because you can't predict when a animal is going to move, here are some wild rabbits and even when they are still you don't know when they are going to shake their head and scratch and at 30 yards there are also other factors to consider, think how far a rabbit can move from the time you pull the trigger.
10.5-11 ft/lbs is for fun plinking and competitions, shooting live animals is controversial when you have to rely on luck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1D_h...ature=youtu.be

I think luck is the wrong word, makes it sound like anyone that hunts is irresponsible. That video doesn’t really represent a hunting scenario, the first part of it they presented themselves almost motionless and they were what I’d class as a viable shot.
Very often when a rabbit clocks you he sits still and watches you get within range until you take the shot,if he carries on feeding a quick squeak or click brings him back up for the shot.

[Muskett]

I think rabbits are cute, the little ones super cute.
I've studied them for hours, not always through a rifle scope; thought hundreds I have.
My children had pet rabbits too.
But wild rabbits in numbers are an agricultural pest, quite a serious one.
They taste good too.

Rats aren't quite as appealing.

[Geezer]

I think luck is the wrong word, makes it sound like anyone that hunts is irresponsible. That video doesn’t really represent a hunting scenario, the first part of it they presented themselves almost motionless and they were what I’d class as a viable shot.
Very often when a rabbit clocks you he sits still and watches you get within range until you take the shot,if he carries on feeding a quick squeak or click brings him back up for the shot.

It's not luck. It's a mathematical equation based on precision, accuracy, lethality (which used to be measured by the military as retained muzzle energy, now measured better as wound effect), range, range judging, wind and wind judging, etc.

That complex equation suggests that going much beyond 30, maybe 40, yards/metres with an air gun is questionable, for anyone.

Terry D, who is a very highly skilled shot, proven by his FT record, has a long-standing challenge to the "I kill everything at 55 yards" gang to go head-to-head on a range, with the results written up in AGW. None of them has ever taken on the challenge.

For me, that's case closed. 12 is fine, at sensible ranges. Sensible meaning when you can reliably hit the (brain) kill zone.

[secretagentmole]

It's not luck. It's a mathematical equation based on precision, accuracy, lethality (which used to be measured by the military as retained muzzle energy, now measured better as wound effect), range, range judging, wind and wind judging, etc.

That complex equation suggests that going much beyond 30, maybe 40, yards/metres with an air gun is questionable, for anyone.

Terry D, who is a very highly skilled shot, proven by his FT record, has a long-standing challenge to the "I kill everything at 55 yards" gang to go head-to-head on a range, with the results written up in AGW. None of them has ever taken on the challenge.

For me, that's case closed. 12 is fine, at sensible ranges. Sensible meaning when you can reliably hit the (brain) kill zone.

Which is why, like when driving, you use sensible distances given the prevailing conditions...

[Muskett]

A caveat I like to spout is that far too many people, men, think that they have a automatic ability, a birth right, to be Davy Crocket, Jim Bowie, and Robin Hood all rolled up in one. Buy the kit and instant success
Shooting and Hunting is a learnt skill. It takes practice and perseverance to gain those skills. Do enough and success will come, and its always helpful if you can find some good guidance. Get enough experience under your belt and one thing is for sure: the more practiced and the closer you can get the more likely to fill the bag and have that successful outcome.

There is nothing wrong in taking longer shots as we have the equipment to deliver them, but to take them requires considerable preparation and testing. Rocking up and chancing it is irresponsible as its leaving it to chance. Put the work in then amazing ranges can be achieved but only once the confidence is such that little has been left to chance. I generally use as a rule, whatever I can achieve distance wise on paper then take a 1/3 off for the field; some times its 1/2. But it really all depends on all the parts coming together into one: the equipment, the marksmanship, the testing and fine tuning, the regular practice and testing, and then a good dollop of restraint. Prove it and then prove it again on paper first. It needs to be repeatable in the field, and then take 1/3rd off, to get the level of certainty that ensure we are confident we have done our very best. Respect for ones quarry demands that. Add to all that the conditions on the day.
What shots I can pull off when fully prepared and in tune from a rigours practice regime, to what I can do when when out of practice, rusty, and not fully confident in the whole combination, is worlds apart.

Just saying.
Everyone finds their own way, its their call if they pull the trigger or not at the end of the day. A good sportsman leaves little to chance.

[Geezer]

Airguns or certainly off ticket ones aren't any more powerful than they were 30 years ago

A power level that was suitable for rabbits at 25 yards then hasn't actually changed, new technology brings more accuracy which has encouraged people to push and push distances to in some cases stupid levels. Which they should stop doing.

Whenever this subject comes up the argument in favour of vermin control with 12 ft-lbs rifles at sensible ranges just becomes clearer.

Amended to reflect my views and experience (which is a lot less than some on here).

For many (most?) users, 15 yard farmyard rats should be the limit. Anything over 30-35 is either off bounds, or total expert territory, using top kit. Frankly, I would not try it (my longest measured successful shot with a springer is 33 yards, with a highly tuned custom .177" 77K, which I knew was on the edge, but the thing was blistering accurate, I was in a solid seated position, I knew the range, and there was no wind) but I have not spent hours with a top PCP and 20x scope off a bipod.

Power is overrated, though. Accuracy is the single biggest factor in wound ballistics. And calibre isn't very important. They all have pros and cons. And they all work.

And yes, some dead animals do keep going when dead. To add to the war stories, I have put a 165grsin Sierra 30-06 soft point straight into a deer's heart and one lung, causing catastrophic damage (on autopsy/butchering) and seen it run 30 yards, only dropping when round two broke the front shoulder. No-one would argue that a 30-06 is not a suitable short-range deer rifle. Similar with squirrels hit centre mass at 15-20 metres with a .22LR hollow point.

But decades of real life suggest that, at sensible ranges, used by sensible and adequately skilled people, 12 (or 8) ft-lbs is fine for pest control.

Seems to me that one advantage of FAC air is taking successful body shots at normal 25-30 yard ranges, giving more options to the user.

Right, football calling (and we are 1-0 up!).