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Thread: Why I am Beginning To Change My Mind About Sub12 Hunting

  1. #1
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    Why I am Beginning To Change My Mind About Sub12 Hunting

    For years I have been believing that this level of power is fine for taking out the usual airgun quarry as ' humanely ' as possible. Having recently watched a lot of U Tube videos of the more responsible shooters and how increasingly they are trying to get closer to the target to make the one shot kill and quite often failing, I am now beginning to think that this level of power is not really suitable for general hunting of the allowed quarry but for perhaps close range ratting or taking the odd pigeon out. The problem from where I stand is that unless the shot is clinical to the brain the result is a wounded animal . Yes they are often taken out with a follow up shot but still. At 11 or so ft.lbs the pellets used do not impart much ballistic shock if any, even at very close distances, to the imapct area therefore even a very close miss does not do enough damage to kill the quarry cleanly. Perhaps the answer is to go for FAC guns of about 30+ ft.lbs where allowed.

    A.G

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    30ftlbs won't make a difference if you still miss the area!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by lensman57 View Post
    For years I have been believing that this level of power is fine for taking out the usual airgun quarry as ' humanely ' as possible. Having recently watched a lot of U Tube videos of the more responsible shooters and how increasingly they are trying to get closer to the target to make the one shot kill and quite often failing, I am now beginning to think that this level of power is not really suitable for general hunting of the allowed quarry but for perhaps close range ratting or taking the odd pigeon out. The problem from where I stand is that unless the shot is clinical to the brain the result is a wounded animal . Yes they are often taken out with a follow up shot but still. At 11 or so ft.lbs the pellets used do not impart much ballistic shock if any, even at very close distances, to the imapct area therefore even a very close miss does not do enough damage to kill the quarry cleanly. Perhaps the answer is to go for FAC guns of about 30+ ft.lbs where allowed.

    A.G
    12ftlbs is absolutely fine for rabbits out to 40yards providing you know your ranges, equipment and can judge weather conditions. A shot to the kill zone on a rabbit off of a bipod is not difficult if you're skilled enough. Wounding does happen, we're human at the end of the day, but should be a rarity and dealt with swifty. It happens with FAC air and firearms too.

    I've had the inclination to go FAC as of recent, but that's because of one of my permissions is quite tricky to get within sub 12 ranges. Really testing my stalking skills as of late and it's very satisfying to get a good bag there. However, from a pest control point of view, FAC will be the way to go for me next.
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    Problem with FAC is you will also get over penetration at our usual ranges

    Back in the day, I often found a head shot on a rabbett below 15 yards would often exit the other side with a standard legal limit air rifle which would obviously not dump all the energy at impact
    Custom BSA S10 .22 PAX Phoenix Mk 2 .22 Custom Titan Manitou .22 (JB BP) HW77 .22 FWB Sport Mk1 .22 Sharp Ace .22 Crossman 600 .22 Berretta 92 .20 Desert Eagle .177

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    When I went down the FAC route, in ~2002, I was struck by the increase in 'certainty' when shooting rabbits. 30ftlb does provide more certainty of a clean kill, than the 11+ftlb power level does. Prior to that it was imperative, if you wanted to reduce the chances of wounding - and who doesn't - you had to be, not just confident in your kit, but assured in your kit.

    A 12ftlb rifle has a place in the shooter's armoury that is unmatched by any other. But there are times, and more times than we'd like, where a 30ftlb rifle is a better bet.
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    Its always been the case that perfect shot placement is required. Head/brain shot the best. Its why I don't shoot further than farmyard ranges with 12ft/lbs rifles.
    I know there are some good shots in tune with their rifles that can achieve longer ranges, but most people are poor and really shouldn't do it. Fine on paper targets but not so great on live quarry.
    Gone are the days that a solid hit was enough as the farm dog would conclude the business sharpish. Shoot to your ability, as there is nothing clever in chancing and hoping for the best.

    I use my air rifles in the garden/farmyard. Beyond that its rimfires and bigger, where even a poor shot should be devastating. FAC Airifles just double effective air rifle ranges, but stil require real precisin; the higher powered ones a little more real shock advantage, but its still not rimfire trauma.

    However, its personal responsibility and respect for the quarry that each individual must decide themselves, for they are pulling the trigger. The same goes for safety, it an individuals responsibility to make that call. If in doubt don't take the shot.
    The true measure of a sportsman is not the bag but how they go about it.
    Last edited by Muskett; 16-06-2018 at 01:30 PM.

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    I think of the old property advice, location, location, location. Just the same even when hunting large game with high powered rifle, it is shot placement every time. My mates have had track wounded game which run off in South Africa and Australia. I am sure the spring rifles we used on rabbits in the 50's and 60's were below 12 ft.lb.

    Baz
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    Quote Originally Posted by snock View Post
    When I went down the FAC route, in ~2002, I was struck by the increase in 'certainty' when shooting rabbits. 30ftlb does provide more certainty of a clean kill, than the 11+ftlb power level does. Prior to that it was imperative, if you wanted to reduce the chances of wounding - and who doesn't - you had to be, not just confident in your kit, but assured in your kit.

    A 12ftlb rifle has a place in the shooter's armoury that is unmatched by any other. But there are times, and more times than we'd like, where a 30ftlb rifle is a better bet.
    I think that you are the only person who grasped what I was trying to convey. Thanks. Shoot a rabbit or a squirrel in the head/brain with a .22 sub 12 and see it kick and kick and kick ( yes sometimes not ). Shoot them with a .22 FAC or a .22 LR and just watch them drop without as much as a twitch. I think the case is very clear. Anyhow we all have to make our own judgements.

    A.G

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    Interestingly I have had some "I'm very dead but the rest of my body doesn't realise it", with my .17HMR recently. On head shot rabbit the result of the .17HMR is colossal, but I often get great leaps and twitching from the carcass. I think my .22LR produce more "roll over" with less final twitch. Much must be in the threat flight mode the rabbit is in before being hit. Changes during the year too, so some must be the energy levels in the rabbits. Odd things happen.

    I have always thought 12ft/lbs was only just enough and its all in shot placement. For around the farm buildings them 12ft/lbs has an important role. 14 to 18ft/lbs would make "shureness" a little easier, if only for the flatter trajectory. I shoot .177 but if I had a bit more power/velocity then it wouldn't take much for me to switch to .20 or .22. Practice and knowing your combo is what pays off in the end. The more shooting you do, loads on paper, the better; its all shootig so whats not to like

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by lensman57 View Post
    I think that you are the only person who grasped what I was trying to convey. Thanks. Shoot a rabbit or a squirrel in the head/brain with a .22 sub 12 and see it kick and kick and kick ( yes sometimes not ). Shoot them with a .22 FAC or a .22 LR and just watch them drop without as much as a twitch. I think the case is very clear. Anyhow we all have to make our own judgements.

    A.G
    I have seen a rabbit with no head that was shot by a .17hmr still "running" on youtube as have other members on here .

    I shoot loads of rabbits in the brainbox with my .22lr and they still kick and kick and kick . it's the nervous system.

    If you hit them in the brain and destroy the brain the nerves may still be active . That's the way it is .

    i have chest shot rabbits and had them drop stone dead,no movement (.22lr)

    Ted from Teds holdover has a video on it .






    Google "disinhibition .headshot animals " and his video is there . ( I hope this is not classed as linking to dead stuff )
    Last edited by bighit; 16-06-2018 at 04:23 PM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by lensman57 View Post
    I think that you are the only person who grasped what I was trying to convey. Thanks. Shoot a rabbit or a squirrel in the head/brain with a .22 sub 12 and see it kick and kick and kick ( yes sometimes not ). Shoot them with a .22 FAC or a .22 LR and just watch them drop without as much as a twitch. I think the case is very clear. Anyhow we all have to make our own judgements.

    A.G
    This past week I've shot 9 squizzers & 2 rats off the bird feeders, all from the same window at between 15-17yds all with the .25 FAC.

    Yes most of them dropped like a stone, but 2 of the squizzers leapt & flailed around for several seconds, on checking the bodies, both head shots had huge exit wounds with most of the skull missing between ear & eye
    no way on earth they were not instant kills but for some reason they went "headless chicken" Sometimes it just happens.

  12. #12
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    http://sciencenordic.com/why-do-headless-chickens-run

    Why a turtle can swim without a head
    To understand Lindén’s research, we’ll go back to the chicken and the turtle:

    The turtle frequently uses swimming movements, so it makes sense for it to have a neural network in the spinal cord pre-programmed to perform swimming movements when the nerve cells are stimulated.

    This means that the nerve cells do not need specific signals from the brain to prompt a coordinated activation of the muscles required to perform a swimming stroke.


    The turtle’s spine is a bit like the human brain in certain respects, but it is a much easier organ to work with. This makes it a good model for the nervous system and for nerve cells in general.
    As long as the neural network is generally stimulated for movement, it is already pre-programmed to activate some specific muscles to perform the swimming strokes in coordination.

    This makes it much simpler and easier for the brain to send movement impulses down the spinal cord.

    End quote


    If a Rabbit has running or jumping movements pre programmed in its neural network and the brain is stopping it running and jumping , when it has no brain there is nothing to stop the pre programmed movements . so they jump and "run" when the brain is destroyed

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by bighit View Post
    I have seen a rabbit with no head that was shot by a .17hmr still "running" on youtube as have other members on here .

    I shoot loads of rabbits in the brainbox with my .22lr and they still kick and kick and kick . it's the nervous system.

    If you hit them in the brain and destroy the brain the nerves may still be active . That's the way it is .

    i have chest shot rabbits and had them drop stone dead,no movement (.22lr)

    Ted from Teds holdover has a video on it .






    Google "disinhibition .headshot animals " and his video is there . ( I hope this is not classed as linking to dead stuff )
    I shot a bunny years back with a .22lr and watched it run about 20yds with it's head bobbing on the ground stone dead!!!!!
    Let's face it bunnies are highly strung creatures
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  14. #14
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    bighit, most interesting post. Makes a lot of sense to me.
    As a Deer Warden I have to dispatch a good few deer. My method is a explosive brain shot. It can take a good while for the body to realise its very dead which is no help when there are witnesses to Bambi's demise.

    I consider air rifle pellets be it .177 or .22 as a stiletto stabbing rather than some explosive grenade going off inside. Shot placement is everything. I suspect it takes at least 18ft/lbs to generate some kind of meaningful hydraulic destruction effect.

  15. #15
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    12 ft hunting

    I have a similar feeling, 12 ft is JUST enough for hunting but Marksmanship has to be top notch. However for .177 12 ft lb is enough as at 55yds the pellets jsb heavies, just go straight thro a rabbits head. In .177 fac air, more power is a complete waste of time. Sub 12ftlb .22 is a noticeable improvement on bunnies but range has to be known exactly for a clean kill. I am currently filling the FAC application form in and will be going for .22 at 30ftlb and .25 at 45ftlb. Some will say why not go for rimfire or hmr but you will almost inevitably get a richot some time!! There is plenty of housing within half a mile radius of where I shoot.
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