Why I am Beginning To Change My Mind About Sub12 Hunting

[Muskett]

The Fur and Feather guide really stems from the fact that the .22 at such low velocities can feather plug on soft feathered birds such as pigeon. The plug effect can stop penetration to only a few mm's which when on a full crop is not enough to kill the bird outright. Often a pigeon will fly a 100m or so before dropping dead, if it drops dead at all.
The wound track between .177 and .22 isn't that huge a difference. Over penetration makes little difference as its the track wound that does the damage. At these low energy levels then there is little energy dump effect. Which is why perfect shot placement cannot be over emphasised as it is the most important for any successful outcome.
Deliver .177 or .22 with precision and both are equal. The .22 may stop faster but they can over penetrate too, there being so little in it all. All arguments are about marginals that make very little practical difference. I tend to use .177 due to its flatter trajectory and I've never known them to feather plug. However, the .22 "smack" is quite forthright in its own way.

Higher velocities everything changes. 12ft/lbs rifles are just enough for their intended use within the farmyard, which is why we have them.
Lastly, we now have the tools to head shoot consistently, which wasn't always the case 40 years ago. No longer is a central hit and farm dog to finish the job off enough as we can now do better than that.

[RichardH]

Airguns or certainly off ticket ones aren't any more powerful than they were 30 years ago

A power level that was suitable for rabbits at 25 yards then hasn't actually changed, new technology brings more accuracy which has encouraged people to push and push distances to in some cases stupid levels and means the viability of the whole thing has to be called into question.

Whenever this subject comes up the argument to make vermin control FAC only just becomes clearer.

[Jonjon79]

That's nothing wrong with taking small game and vermin with .177 sub 12.

Like with everything, you just work within the limitations.

[Barryg]

Lots of different opinions but the facts are still the same, shot placement is luck because you can't predict when a animal is going to move, here are some wild rabbits and even when they are still you don't know when they are going to shake their head and scratch and at 30 yards there are also other factors to consider, think how far a rabbit can move from the time you pull the trigger.
10.5-11 ft/lbs is for fun plinking and competitions, shooting live animals is controversial when you have to rely on luck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1D_h...ature=youtu.be

[TonyL]

I always thought that the attraction was with the challenge and fieldcraft required.

I don't hunt these days but I did for many years and in all that time I never yearned for more power.

Back in the early 80s my FWB 127 was my "go to" hunting rifle and we cleanly despatched many rabbits, rats and pigeon plus a few squirrels. When I got it chrono'd it was doing 9.5ft.lbs.

[Muskett]

But we are not relying on absolute luck. Nor are we relying on absolute certainty. Is there anything in life that doesn't have some luck involved, or anything often with absolute certainty? Think the latter is death and taxes.

Shooting animals is not controversial when done responsibly. In fact its very normal, its more weird to think otherwise. Bar one religion, there are few cultures that do not include other animals as part of natures bounty to exploit, or to control if a pest. How achieved, and to what level, with even what conservation to include, is part of a huge debate. But the management, conservation, and the bounty I take, is to me absolutely fine and very normal. I'm comfortable with it, and my dinner better for it

[Pelletpinger]

Lots of different opinions but the facts are still the same, shot placement is luck because you can't predict when a animal is going to move, here are some wild rabbits and even when they are still you don't know when they are going to shake their head and scratch and at 30 yards there are also other factors to consider, think how far a rabbit can move from the time you pull the trigger.
10.5-11 ft/lbs is for fun plinking and competitions, shooting live animals is controversial when you have to rely on luck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1D_h...ature=youtu.be

I think luck is the wrong word, makes it sound like anyone that hunts is irresponsible. That video doesn’t really represent a hunting scenario, the first part of it they presented themselves almost motionless and they were what I’d class as a viable shot.
Very often when a rabbit clocks you he sits still and watches you get within range until you take the shot,if he carries on feeding a quick squeak or click brings him back up for the shot.

[Muskett]

I think rabbits are cute, the little ones super cute.
I've studied them for hours, not always through a rifle scope; thought hundreds I have.
My children had pet rabbits too.
But wild rabbits in numbers are an agricultural pest, quite a serious one.
They taste good too.

Rats aren't quite as appealing.

[Geezer]

I think luck is the wrong word, makes it sound like anyone that hunts is irresponsible. That video doesn’t really represent a hunting scenario, the first part of it they presented themselves almost motionless and they were what I’d class as a viable shot.
Very often when a rabbit clocks you he sits still and watches you get within range until you take the shot,if he carries on feeding a quick squeak or click brings him back up for the shot.

It's not luck. It's a mathematical equation based on precision, accuracy, lethality (which used to be measured by the military as retained muzzle energy, now measured better as wound effect), range, range judging, wind and wind judging, etc.

That complex equation suggests that going much beyond 30, maybe 40, yards/metres with an air gun is questionable, for anyone.

Terry D, who is a very highly skilled shot, proven by his FT record, has a long-standing challenge to the "I kill everything at 55 yards" gang to go head-to-head on a range, with the results written up in AGW. None of them has ever taken on the challenge.

For me, that's case closed. 12 is fine, at sensible ranges. Sensible meaning when you can reliably hit the (brain) kill zone.

[secretagentmole]

It's not luck. It's a mathematical equation based on precision, accuracy, lethality (which used to be measured by the military as retained muzzle energy, now measured better as wound effect), range, range judging, wind and wind judging, etc.

That complex equation suggests that going much beyond 30, maybe 40, yards/metres with an air gun is questionable, for anyone.

Terry D, who is a very highly skilled shot, proven by his FT record, has a long-standing challenge to the "I kill everything at 55 yards" gang to go head-to-head on a range, with the results written up in AGW. None of them has ever taken on the challenge.

For me, that's case closed. 12 is fine, at sensible ranges. Sensible meaning when you can reliably hit the (brain) kill zone.

Which is why, like when driving, you use sensible distances given the prevailing conditions...

[Geezer]

Airguns or certainly off ticket ones aren't any more powerful than they were 30 years ago

A power level that was suitable for rabbits at 25 yards then hasn't actually changed, new technology brings more accuracy which has encouraged people to push and push distances to in some cases stupid levels. Which they should stop doing.

Whenever this subject comes up the argument in favour of vermin control with 12 ft-lbs rifles at sensible ranges just becomes clearer.

Amended to reflect my views and experience (which is a lot less than some on here).

For many (most?) users, 15 yard farmyard rats should be the limit. Anything over 30-35 is either off bounds, or total expert territory, using top kit. Frankly, I would not try it (my longest measured successful shot with a springer is 33 yards, with a highly tuned custom .177" 77K, which I knew was on the edge, but the thing was blistering accurate, I was in a solid seated position, I knew the range, and there was no wind) but I have not spent hours with a top PCP and 20x scope off a bipod.

Power is overrated, though. Accuracy is the single biggest factor in wound ballistics. And calibre isn't very important. They all have pros and cons. And they all work.

And yes, some dead animals do keep going when dead. To add to the war stories, I have put a 165grsin Sierra 30-06 soft point straight into a deer's heart and one lung, causing catastrophic damage (on autopsy/butchering) and seen it run 30 yards, only dropping when round two broke the front shoulder. No-one would argue that a 30-06 is not a suitable short-range deer rifle. Similar with squirrels hit centre mass at 15-20 metres with a .22LR hollow point.

But decades of real life suggest that, at sensible ranges, used by sensible and adequately skilled people, 12 (or 8) ft-lbs is fine for pest control.

Seems to me that one advantage of FAC air is taking successful body shots at normal 25-30 yard ranges, giving more options to the user.

Right, football calling (and we are 1-0 up!).