Why I am Beginning To Change My Mind About Sub12 Hunting

[Muskett]

I don't think you understand still Muskett...

The point being illustrated is that energy in and of itself is not much a metric in determining killing power and that this is illustrated up and down the rifle power and corresponding game animal range.

Try not to get freaked out by the word "elephant", I didn't kill them Victorians with muzzle loaders and starving natives with AKs did.

I agree energy in itself isn't enough, though if you go big enough the percussion itself is enough to turn living matter into soup. Howitzer size.
I agree the "Victorians" did a lot of damage because the supply looked inexhaustible. You could add Carrier pigeon, North American Buffalo, plus a few more to the list. The list is long. Heck Wale populations were "over fished" as late as the early 1960's.
Given poverty and starvation, then the locals can finish off pretty much anything. The UK deer population got eaten out of existence at least twice since the Romans, it took the nobility to bring them back with threat of execution for poachers!.

This conservation larky is all very modern, all a bit late, and still only token.

I think most people agree that until energy get to .22LR levels the bullet/pellets behave like knitting needles more than anything else.
I like to think them as knitting needles.
.22LR a golf ball of devastation.
A.17HMR a tennis ball.
.223 small melon.
.308 medium melon.
.338 Lapua then a water melon with a baseball bat follow through.
Bullet integrity has to be enough to get far enough "in'. Some are too soft and self explode/evaporate against not much resistance. Some so hard they just drill right through.

Shotgun effect is another method where the multiplier is the number of pellets hitting all at once. Number of hits and adequate penetration.

A huge and fascinating subject, a little too much for this farmyard thread.

[Hsing-ee]

I agree energy in itself isn't enough, though if you go big enough the percussion itself is enough to turn living matter into soup. Howitzer size.
I agree the "Victorians" did a lot of damage because the supply looked inexhaustible. You could add Carrier pigeon, North American Buffalo, plus a few more to the list. The list is long. Heck Wale populations were "over fished" as late as the early 1960's.
Given poverty and starvation, then the locals can finish off pretty much anything. The UK deer population got eaten out of existence at least twice since the Romans, it took the nobility to bring them back with threat of execution for poachers!.

This conservation larky is all very modern, all a bit late, and still only token.

I think most people agree that until energy get to .22LR levels the bullet/pellets behave like knitting needles more than anything else.
I like to think them as knitting needles.
.22LR a golf ball of devastation.
A.17HMR a tennis ball.
.223 small melon.
.308 medium melon.
.338 Lapua then a water melon with a baseball bat follow through.
Bullet integrity has to be enough to get far enough "in'. Some are too soft and self explode/evaporate against not much resistance. Some so hard they just drill right through.

Shotgun effect is another method where the multiplier is the number of pellets hitting all at once. Number of hits and adequate penetration.

A huge and fascinating subject, a little to much for this farmyard thread.

What about the brass torpedoes filled with TNT that some airgun in the Phillipines is used to fire? They are for wild water buffaloes.

[Muskett]

The Austrians defeated the French with Air Rifles. the Girandoni or Windbuchse (literally meaning "wind rifle" in German). But non of these were 12ft/lbs.

Think we are all taking a bit too much Windbuchse
Think Windbuchse might be the new BBS word for talking off subject bollocks. Being a multishot thats raidid fire ripple effect of hot air coming out of one's arse. I've guilty often enough for having a dose of Windbuchse on any subject Some have it worse than I.

[Geezer]

I was thinking of writing something reasonable, carefully argued, and based on science (both physics and biology), which, while understanding of other viewpoints, would in a temperate and respectful way explain why I do not fully share them and indicate various learned sources that posters might wish to review and then reflect on their opinions.

But, heck, this is a weird thread and the footie is about to start.

[Hurricane]

I think that you are the only person who grasped what I was trying to convey. Thanks. Shoot a rabbit or a squirrel in the head/brain with a .22 sub 12 and see it kick and kick and kick ( yes sometimes not ). Shoot them with a .22 FAC or a .22 LR and just watch them drop without as much as a twitch. I think the case is very clear. Anyhow we all have to make our own judgements.

A.G

Come late to this thread, was searching something else.
I've told this story before, shot two rabbits in quick succession with the HMR, both head shots, first one disappeared, second one did the most impressive death dance I've ever seen, when I went to pick it up found the first one, it had rolled over with no subsequent movement, I struggled to find any sign of wound, after careful looking I saw a tiny drop of blood in it's temple, the bullet had passed straight throu its temples leaving hardly a sign. The second rabbit which had done the dance was totally different, the most damage I've ever seen from a HMR, the entire 'face' of the rabbit was gone leaving just the lower jaw and back of scull virtually no brain left, so movement after being shot is no indication of life.