Why I am Beginning To Change My Mind About Sub12 Hunting

[lensman57]

I have read some utter shite on this post. Especially in the first few pages.

Would you care to elaborate?

A.G

[keithy]

Which has more power then?

A 12ftlb .25 pellet,

or

a 12ftlb .177 pellet ?!

In my example they both have the same power but the damage they do is very different.

[angrybear]

It does not help to conflate muzzle energy and terminal ballistic effect. They may be related, but only after the interaction with another element.

'Stopping power' is a somewhat misleading Leyman term.
I prefer to define it as the biological effect of kinetic energy transfer from projectile to animal to cessate basic biological function.

Fine, well in that case the .25 will transfer all of it's kinetic energy to the animal & the biological effect will be markedly more soft tissue damage,
resulting in a directly corresponding increase in the likelihood of total cessation of biological function.

The .177 will pass through the animal & exit with a large portion of kinetic energy still contained in the moving pellet, the amount transferred to the animal is impossible to know, but is un arguably less, so there is correspondingly less soft tissue damage & likelihood of total function cessation.

How's that ?

[Randy Bohannon]

Fine, well in that case the .25 will transfer all of it's kinetic energy to the animal & the biological effect will be markedly more soft tissue damage,
resulting in a directly corresponding increase in the likelihood of total cessation of biological function.

The .177 will pass through the animal & exit with a large portion of kinetic energy still contained in the moving pellet, the amount transferred to the animal is impossible to know, but is un arguably less, so there is correspondingly less soft tissue damage & likelihood of total function cessation.

How's that ?

Almost childlike in it's wonder and imagination.

The issue is that energy doesn't kill, or sunlight would at ~ 1300 J/m^2, what kills is the tissue disruption that the energy possessed by the projectile enables.

Once that hole has been made in the vital tissue structure, any "extra" energy would not be needed in the first place.

Give me a pellet that "over penetrates" over one that that mushrooms inswide the animal on the same shot presentation every time, that little bit extra could save my skin on an inadvertently more quartering shot, for example.

[Muskett]

But if you haven't destroyed a vital organ because you haven't hit it you just have a larger non immediate lethal wound.
I once had a squirrel with five .22 pellets in it. It still was able to climb down the tree and leap at my face. Fortunately I was quicker than it being a lot younger than I am now. I had been using a Webley MKIII .22 of my fathers with open sights. which in its day was considered a great choice for farmyard critters. Tough beasts can take a lot of punishment, so its paramount to take out a vital organ be it brain or heart. All five pellets were found under the skin the opposite side.

It taught me shot placement is king, calibre pretty irrelevant.

I sold that MKIII and bought a FWB Sport in .177 with an optic sight. Head shots from then on, and my instant kill rate went up considerably.

Dumping all the energy from a bullet, or pellet, is a positive, but any projectile that can pass all the way through has already delivered ample energy to destroy the organ its hit.
How wide is a critter? How far to a vital organ? 1/2" if that on small critters. There isn't much there, shin, flesh and bone, to stop much. Big calibres, wide frontal area, often get caught by the elasticity and toughness of the far side skin rather than much else.
Again air rifle pellets at 12ft/lbs behave like knitting needles, or stilettos, what width stiletto isn't that important, it the precision of placement. On the very smallest critter like a rat a large calibre by pure scale to body mass can have an influence as shown by .25 on them. But getting that .25 to a solid central hit is far more difficult.

All very particular to 12ft/lbs. Go FAC or rimfire/centrefire and everything changes again. We get into a whole range of influences, velocity, energy, calibre, and bullet construction; plus toughness and mass of the target beast. Its chat for the camp fire and beer.

[Randy Bohannon]

But if you haven't destroyed a vital organ because you haven't hit it you just have a larger non immediate lethal wound.
I once had a squirrel with five .22 pellets in it. It still was able to climb down the tree and leap at my face. Fortunately I was quicker than it being a lot younger than I am now. I had been using a Webley MKIII .22 of my fathers with open sights. which in its day was considered a great choice for farmyard critters. Tough beasts can take a lot of punishment, so its paramount to take out a vital organ be it brain or heart. All five pellets were found under the skin the opposite side.

It taught me shot placement is king, calibre pretty irrelevant.

I sold that MKIII and bought a FWB Sport in .177 with an optic sight. Head shots from then on, and my instant kill rate went up considerably.

Dumping all the energy from a bullet, or pellet, is a positive, but and projectile that can pass all the way through has already delivered ample energy to destroy the organ its hit.
How wide is a critter? How far to a vital organ? 1/2" if that on small critters. There isn't much there, shin, flesh and bone, to stop much. Big calibres, wide frontal area, often get caught by the elasticity and toughness of the far side skin rather than much else.
Again air rifle pellets at 12ft/lbs behave like knitting needles, or stilettos, what width stiletto isn't that important, it the precision of placement. On the very smallest critter like a rat a large calibre by pure scale to body mass can have an influence as shown by .25 on them. But getting that .25 to a solid central hit is far more difficult.

All very particular to 12ft/lbs. Go FAC or rimfire/centrefire and everything changes again. We get into a whole range of influences, velocity, energy, calibre, and bullet construction; plus toughness and mass of the target beast. Its chat for the camp fire and beer.

Are you sure this wasn't a leopard Muskers?

[Muskett]

I don't shoot cats, though I have been on leopard hunts though I wasn't the client. Witnessing my first shot Leopard put me off trophy hunting completely. I've never done any kind of trophy shooting, even with deer. I like cats and know Leopard can be a pest species in certain places, but its just not for me at all. (I can't even do feral cats that threaten Scottish Wild Cats, though I know people who do that important job.)
However, I'm all for Safari hunting to pay for conservation. If someone wants to shoot an old Rhino for $150,000 and that means there are three more Rhinos then I'm all for it. Same with Lions., Elephants, but the hunters need to pay top $ and the conservation and breeding program needs to be in place. Wildlife requires value as otherwise people just eradicate them.
I'd shoot a poacher before certain game if that poacher was targeting something endangered. (If I won the lottery big time I'd quite fancy self financing a few months a year Poaching Patrol where ever some organisation would have me. One of my little fantasies when I buy a lottery ticket; sad I know).

Rats cornered will go for you. Squirrels are but tree rats. I love my Red Squirrels as they are super cute, Greys no they are getting "it".

[RobF]

Almost childlike in it's wonder and imagination.

The issue is that energy doesn't kill, or sunlight would at ~ 1300 J/m^2, what kills is the tissue disruption that the energy possessed by the projectile enables.

Once that hole has been made in the vital tissue structure, any "extra" energy would not be needed in the first place.

Give me a pellet that "over penetrates" over one that that mushrooms inswide the animal on the same shot presentation every time, that little bit extra could save my skin on an inadvertently more quartering shot, for example.

A discussion at a BBQ about this at weekend went along the lines of : my 79gn at 3400 fps doesn't exit the other side... and the problems with what it does to the meat...

This is nothing like the conversation of 12 ft-lb 4.5-6.35mm. Stop watching NCIS or whatever is going on about would channel etc, it's an low powered air riflle. Hit it in the right place. Very simple, always the same. Respect the quarry.

[Randy Bohannon]

A discussion at a BBQ about this at weekend went along the lines of : my 79gn at 3400 fps doesn't exit the other side... and the problems with what it does to the meat...

This is nothing like the conversation of 12 ft-lb 4.5-6.35mm. Stop watching NCIS or whatever is going on about would channel etc, it's an low powered air riflle. Hit it in the right place. Very simple, always the same. Respect the quarry.

Agreed, for sub 12ft/lb air rifles the idea of energy transfer is a little odd as there is not enough energy to do much beyond the the diameter of the pellet.

Even in the case of centrefire rifle rounds the position is more or less the same in equivalent circumstances if examined in terms of energy of round as a function of size of quarry.

The analagous situation is when hunting thick skinned big game.

A .375H&H is to an elephant what a .177 air rifle is to a buddy in these circumstances, you shoot a solid bullet ( to prevent any deformation) with the aim of getting as much penetration as possible because only a brain shot will stop/drop the beast with any reliability.

To turn a charge without hitting the brain reliably needs much larger calibres and even then the advice on not getting stopped is "hit it in the right place" too.

[Muskett]

Next time I'm charged down by a rabbit I'll remember that

Some animals are tougher than old boots, others very fragile.
Comparing UK farm vermin to African beasts is a long way apart.
What works in one place might not in another. Certainly there has been quite an issue with American calibre's and bullets not transferring well to African Safari where the game is so much tougher altogether. The trend for very fast bullets isn't always the answer as sometimes big slow and solid does the job better. Shot placement and the projectile has to get there to work.
Think this huge subject is for another thread.

Think the original question has been answered and tested. It will always be an individual's call.

[Randy Bohannon]

Next time I'm charged down by a rabbit I'll remember that

Some animals are tougher than old boots, others very fragile.
Comparing UK farm vermin to African beasts is a long way apart.
What works in one place might not in another. Certainly there has been quite an issue with American calibre's and bullets not transferring well to African Safari where the game is so much tougher altogether. The trend for very fast bullets isn't always the answer as sometimes big slow and solid does the job better. Shot placement and the projectile has to get there to work.
Think this huge subject is for another thread.

Think the original question has been answered and tested. It will always be an individual's call.

Well, given that you've been charged by a squirrel it's not beyond the realms of possibility.

Maybe the read my post again, the comparison is in size of quarry as a function of rifle energy at an extreme where the situation is similar to that of an underpowered air rifle in comparison to it's quarry...

[Muskett]

I've been charged by Gurkhas, but thankfully they are on our side

A 12ft/bls air rifle is capable of killing a fox, but you would be a cnt to try.
A 12ft/lbs air rifle is capable of killing a hare, but you would be 1/2 a cnt to do so.
Those who shoot cats with a 12ft/bls air rifle should be prosecuted.

Every few years somebody, often a child, is killed by accident by a 12 ft/lbs air rifle. They are not toys. Every year people drown in ponds, but no one is suggesting banning ponds.

Elephants have been killed with the .22LR, as technically with perfect shot placement it is possible though a gamble that it would do it. Sadly it has been done.
A copper tube with home made bullet and Swan Vesta match heads as the propellant have shot Tigers. Usually to finish off snared ones done by poor locals seeing a fast buck from poaching.

Not sure where this debate needs to go anymore as its gone way beyond its remit. The human race has a huge armoury to "do in" anything on the planet. We are The Management. On the UK patch can all be respectful and responsible please.
Out from me on this.

[RobF]

Randy gets charged by the hour...

[Randy Bohannon]

I don't think you understand still Muskett...

The point being illustrated is that energy in and of itself is not much a metric in determining killing power and that this is illustrated up and down the rifle power and corresponding game animal range.

Try not to get freaked out by the word "elephant", I didn't kill them Victorians with muzzle loaders and starving natives with AKs did.

[robhw97k]

still need head or heart and lung shot for instant kill,weather be 12flb or 30lb,body shot belly leg ect neither will kill instant.only advantage using 30lb gun is over longer distance.just my take on it.