Why I am Beginning To Change My Mind About Sub12 Hunting

[Artfull-Bodger]

Just keep the range down to less than 40yds, airgun hunting used to be about fieldcraft, most shots were in the 20-25yd range, I think the improvement in rifle and especially ammunition accuracy these days is convincing people to take longer and longer shots.

We shoot golf balls off a rack down our range at 60yds and a 30mm kill zone bell target at 70yds, but that's from a stable FT style sitting position, not standing, crouching or leaning on a tree.

[danco1987]

Just keep the range down to less than 40yds, airgun hunting used to be about fieldcraft, most shots were in the 20-25yd range, I think the improvement in rifle and especially ammunition accuracy these days is convincing people to take longer and longer shots.

We shoot golf balls off a rack down our range at 60yds and a 30mm kill zone bell target at 70yds, but that's from a stable FT style sitting position, not standing, crouching or leaning on a tree.

Completely agree. Improvements in equipment has led to YouTubers posting videos of silly long distance shots which will convince novices that these sorts of ranges are acceptable. Problem is, people starting out will be put off if this leads to unclean shots and assume sub 12 is not a tool for the job. I think it's important to spread the message that sub 12 hunting is all about field craft and restricted distance to ensure we achieve the highest shot to kill ratios as possible. Only then is hunting with sub 12 enjoyable and most importantly effective at helping reduce pest species for landowners, which they are in manner different scenarios when firearms are not suitable and even where they are, such fitted with NV from vehicles. You get these people pushing the boundaries unnecessarily in all hobbies and walks of life - fishing, driving, you name it. But the vast majority of material out there on the web and videos on YouTube do promote good practice and that's what I try and do when talking to anyone about hunting with sub 12s.

[Barryg]

In truth, Richard Dawkins cannot know what pain an animal feels. He is currently advocating the moral superiority of veganism, and seeks to bolster his argument with unfounded speculation. But if that has influenced your thinking Barry, you need to consider that in the same lecture he compares keeping animals as pets to the abhorrent practice of slavery. So it’s goodbye hunting, goodbye Rottie.

Richard Dawkins is not a Vegan but he is the University of Oxford Professor for the Public Understanding of Science and a professor of evolutionary biology. What type of people influence your thinking
If anyone is not sure what we are talking about here is a short video, what is there to disagree with?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vgmjh7bh7Ks

[wobbly bob]

I am not much influenced by other people’s thinking. I tend to look at the facts and decide for myself. However, it hardly furthers the public understanding of science to promulgate the idea, in the complete absence of any empirical evidence, that animals may feel more pain because they are stupid.

The general consensus is that humans evolved when we freed up some thinking time by ditching the veggies and climbing to the top of the food chain. On the other hand, no one would disagree with the idea of reducing animal suffering as far as possible. And few would argue that a woody taken with a head shot has not had a better deal than a battery hen.

[Muskett]

Well the fox that killed seven of my neighbour's chickens last night hadn't heard of Richard Dawkins.
Though the Human Race holds the belief its special in some way there is little to show that it is.

I can ensure I do my bit by not being intentionally cruel, and keep suffering to practical minimum, but I can't stop it completely for nature has no such scruples and life is a risky business with luck having a huge part to play.
The foxes in my local vicinity are going to be out of luck over the next few weeks as there will be a concerted effort to shoot them where and whenever they are found. Gordon the Farmer loves his chickens more, and pretty upset. Electric fences were on and he spends a small fortune of fencing and keeping the critters out. Gordon loves his animals and wouldn't hurt a fly, doesn't shoot himself so will ask me to "do the dirty".
He has given me full permission to eradicate the vermin including any rats. I am pleased there are such kind and compassionate people such as Gordon, but he realises too that there also needs to be some who are a little more pragmatic and do what has to be done. I get no enjoyment from the Kill at all, but I do get satisfaction from delivering a good shot to get the jpb done is the most satisfactory humane placement possible. I am pragmatic enough to know not every outcome will always go perfectly to plan, but thats just tough; those chickens had it tough too. What I am not is cavalier with the responsibility of what I am doing, for I love animals too.

I'll use all the tools in my gun cabinet to get the job done. 12ft/lbs rifles are part of that tool box, as are some heavier calibres. Quietly and efficiently the job will get done.
Its not the first time he has had a raid, nor will it be the last. His bantams he had had for seven years and some he considered friends/pets. So this time the gloves are off and all legal methods will be deployed.

We are The Management and the management is going to do some management. Does anyone have a problem with that? If you do then go and have a KFC and and reevaluate your priorities.

[sandyman1963]

Practice practice and more practice. Sitting on a range and getting good better and dammed good is a start.

Then ask around your area for permission to place targets on different parts of the land this will help to learn the wind issue along with shot placement.

Once mastered start again as practice and more practice is better than none.

Once confident then go hunting but always always remember what you are shooting at feels pain and does not deserve to suffer. After all would you like having a pellet stuck in you unroll you die.

I like believe that I’m a good shoot but always strive to improve as practice and more practice helps.

With the new rifles coming out we are getting some dammed good accurate rifles that are great and help the shooter no end. But no matter how good your kit is you are the one pulling the trigger.

A must have are good field skills for with out them you are stuffed and again it is all about practice.

My old man used to take me out hunting and every time I trashed his stalking I would have to run around a field with my springer above my head until he was sure his point has been made.

He no matter how much I begged him let my pop my first animal until he was 100% sure I would kill it and cause no issues for the animal.

No one in this world is a perfect shot but every shooter can strive to improve and improve some more.

[Barryg]

I am not much influenced by other people’s thinking. I tend to look at the facts and decide for myself. However, it hardly furthers the public understanding of science to promulgate the idea, in the complete absence of any empirical evidence, that animals may feel more pain because they are stupid.

The general consensus is that humans evolved when we freed up some thinking time by ditching the veggies and climbing to the top of the food chain. On the other hand, no one would disagree with the idea of reducing animal suffering as far as possible. And few would argue that a woody taken with a head shot has not had a better deal than a battery hen.

LOL. I think that you are on thin ice if you start disagreeing with Darwin's Rottweiler RD when it comes to evolution general consensus our thinking is evolving all the time now veganism is the fastest growing lifestyle in the UK and perhaps the western world, so perhaps hunters should also be evolving and be using more powerful airguns in a effort to be more humane.

[Muskett]

Veganism is all very nice but its a lifestyle choice fashion only brought about because living standards are high enough to allow such luxury. Humans put under starvation stress will revert to eating just about anything. Just as true is that the eating of the quantities of meat that we do now is also a result of affluence.
Our natural diet should be mostly grain, fruit, nuts, berries, and vegetable matter, with a small part consisting of meat. Similar to bears, with the odd beetle and seafood dish thrown in. Unlike bears we do not need to hold huge fat reserves to hibernate the winter.

The improvement in modern 12ft/lbs air rifle's virtues should be sold more that the range for pest control hasn't changed, its still farmyard ranges, maybe adding no more than another 10m with practice. That more precision should allow us to be even more humane with our delivery and be applauded for that fact. However, for target shooting this improvement in accuracy allows longer range target shooting to be done just for the fun of it all, but it is not a reason to extend the practical hunting range to the same extent. The effective, humane, practical hunting range remains virtually the same as its always been.
An individuals hunting range is and will always will be limited to an individuals ability to deliver with confidence the pellet, whatever calibre, into what is a very small lethal kill zone.

A good sportsman will practice, test, and practice again, until confident and sure. Realistic of their abilities and show restraint by staying well within those abilities. Its the least one can do to show respect for one's quarry.
If you are not happy with 12ft/lbs for hunting use then don't do it. That is an individuals call.

[danco1987]

LOL. I think that you are on thin ice if you start disagreeing with Darwin's Rottweiler RD when it comes to evolution general consensus our thinking is evolving all the time now veganism is the fastest growing lifestyle in the UK and perhaps the western world, so perhaps hunters should also be evolving and be using more powerful airguns in a effort to be more humane.

A more powerful air rifle is not necessarily more humane. 12ftlbs in the brain is more humane that 24 ftlbs in the stomach. People have been hunting with 12ftlbs air rifles for decades, very successfully.

I don't agree with you about western thinking evolving. Westerners now no longer even use their brains anymore, social media is taking over our thinking, people prefer to stay inside, watch celebrity love island and be keyboard warriors sprouting complete carp about topics they have no understanding of, instead of going out and understanding the countryside and the environment around us.Just because veganism is a growing trend doesn't mean it's the right one.

Field craft is the most important element in hunting and accepting there is a chance of things might not go to plan no matter what tool is being used, doing everything you can to minimise that and deal with it as swifty as possible if it happens - that's the most humane way of doing things. We are dealing with pests at the end of the day and harvesting meat, free range and often great quality meat.

Go tell the Hadza hunter gatherers in Tanzania or any other traditional tribes on this globe that their bows are no longer considered "humane" anymore by us self righteous westerners and that their successful hunting so far has all been down to luck and they need more power. See what they think of that.

[Artfull-Bodger]

]Veganism is all very nice but its a lifestyle choice fashion only brought about because living standards are high enough to allow such luxury. Humans put under starvation stress will revert to eating just about anything. Just as true is that the eating of the quantities of meat that we do now is also a result of affluence.
Our natural diet should be mostly grain, fruit, nuts, berries, and vegetable matter, with a small part consisting of meat. Similar to bears, with the odd beetle and seafood dish thrown in. Unlike bears we do not need to hold huge fat reserves to hibernate the winter.
[/B]
The improvement in modern 12ft/lbs air rifle's virtues should be sold more that the range for pest control hasn't changed, its still farmyard ranges, maybe adding no more than another 10m with practice. That more precision should allow us to be even more humane with our delivery and be applauded for that fact. However, for target shooting this improvement in accuracy allows longer range target shooting to be done just for the fun of it all, but it is not a reason to extend the practical hunting range to the same extent. The effective, humane, practical hunting range remains virtually the same as its always been.
An individuals hunting range is and will always will be limited to an individuals ability to deliver with confidence the pellet, whatever calibre, into what is a very small lethal kill zone.

A good sportsman will practice, test, and practice again, until confident and sure. Realistic of their abilities and show restraint by staying well within those abilities. Its the least one can do to show respect for one's quarry.
If you are not happy with 12ft/lbs for hunting use then don't do it. That is an individuals call.

Yep, Vegans and Veggies are only Vegans and Veggies because they have never been starving!

[Barryg]

Yep, Vegans and Veggies are only Vegans and Veggies because they have never been starving!

What about Shaolin monks they don't live the high life, could you endure what they do as routine?
I wonder what they would be like at airgun shooting

[Muskett]

Probably very good.
The "monk" system is only an organised and often disciplined living system. All depends on the cultural routes, the resources available, and the levels of conflict. Most religions stem from the need for a constructive human cooperation operation; set of rules to live and work by as a joint venture. Humans take a long time to get to maturity so require a sophisticated system to get there. Individual people don't do well, but as as an organised mass humans do very well.

There are plenty of cultures and religions that give animals respect, even to the point of not killing them. Having said that it only works if there is the resources to allow that to happen. Soon breaks down when human's don't have enough.

Think this is well off track to farmyard vermin control by air rifle. Farm Cats and Working Terriers would be more relevant. is a 12ft/lbs air rifle as humane as a Terrier's crunch on a rat?

Shot one fox last night, though saw two. Gordon the farmer lost three chickens this morning. Its either young foxes getting kicked out by their parents or a Fox "dump" on our patch. Looks like I have my work cut out for the next few days.

[JME]

I stopped hunting a few years back now, I’ve tried .22, HMR and FAC Air (under supervision of a ticket holder) but my own hunting was always sub 12ft lb air mainly PCP but also with springers.

I’m not bullshitting here (and I may have been lucky rather than skilful) but I never had a runner during my hunting days. I didn’t take a shot many times as I didn’t feel 100% and I’ve clean missed the rabbit a few times, but I’ve never hit a rabbit and wounded it. 99% was .177 the rest .22.

In my very limited experience if I stayed within my limitations / ability and didn’t take chances where the odds were against me then sub 12ftlbs was enough to produce a clean and humane kill.

I struggle now with shooting and fishing in terms of ethics, so go cycling instead

[ChrisC]

Each to their own Jamie, i struggle to see how hunting for food can be deemed unethical, unless of course it's carried out by some of the total spoons we've had on the long range hunting threads.

[greenwayjames]

For years I have been believing that this level of power is fine for taking out the usual airgun quarry as ' humanely ' as possible. Having recently watched a lot of U Tube videos of the more responsible shooters and how increasingly they are trying to get closer to the target to make the one shot kill and quite often failing, I am now beginning to think that this level of power is not really suitable for general hunting of the allowed quarry but for perhaps close range ratting or taking the odd pigeon out. The problem from where I stand is that unless the shot is clinical to the brain the result is a wounded animal . Yes they are often taken out with a follow up shot but still. At 11 or so ft.lbs the pellets used do not impart much ballistic shock if any, even at very close distances, to the imapct area therefore even a very close miss does not do enough damage to kill the quarry cleanly. Perhaps the answer is to go for FAC guns of about 30+ ft.lbs where allowed.

A.G

Air rifles depend on accuracy and shot placement rather than "ballistic shock" to be effective at humanely taking out suitable quarry. This takes really good shooting ability in the field to hit a tiny "kill zone". Problems occur because shooters over estimate their ability and shoot at quarry beyond the range they can consistently hit the required tiny spot. Even a sub 12 ft/lbs air rifle puts out enough energy to kill a rabbit beyond 100 yards but it is beyond the ability of any shooter or air rifle to confidently place the shot in a kill zone the size of a thumbnail.