Why I am Beginning To Change My Mind About Sub12 Hunting

[angrybear]

I am not much influenced by other people’s thinking. I tend to look at the facts and decide for myself. However, it hardly furthers the public understanding of science to promulgate the idea, in the complete absence of any empirical evidence, that animals may feel more pain because they are stupid.

The general consensus is that humans evolved when we freed up some thinking time by ditching the veggies and climbing to the top of the food chain. On the other hand, no one would disagree with the idea of reducing animal suffering as far as possible. And few would argue that a woody taken with a head shot has not had a better deal than a battery hen.

Well that's rubbish,
Humans are omnivores, that is physically demonstrated by our teeth which have evolved to be both sharp meat cutting & flat vegetable /cereal grinding.
Primitive Humans were nomadic hunter gatherers, long before they became settled farmers.
Since Humans have become settled farmers the amount of meat in our diet has increased because it's constantly available where as hunting is not always successful.

Animals raised by intensive farming (like battery hens) do not miss what they have never known, any more than a yob raised in inner city tower blocks misses walking through rolling woods & mountains when he has never known that lifestyle.
However to capture & cage "wild" animals is a totally different matter.

Do birds & animals feel pain ? yes of course they do, which is why we as so called "superior" creatures should go out of our way to ensure that they suffer as little as possible, when we harvest them for food or eliminate them as vermin.

Sub 12 hunting can be perfectly acceptable & humane when it is done within sensible limits, but it can also be completely unacceptable when those limits are not respected.
Personally speaking I prefer to reduce/remove those limitations by only hunting with FAC.


Vegan/vegetarian - primitive descriptive term for the village idiot who cannot be taught to hunt, fish or light fires.

[DEAN C.]

Even if you were a world champion it would only be luck for a humaine quick kill because animals move, so shot placement is unreliable.

You have to be a decent shot, yes! so maybe that's the issue really ………...marksmanship. How do we monitor that?

I very rarely wound a rabbit or Magpie in fact I cannot remember the last time I didn't get a clean kill, but I have been hunting with air rifles for 40 years and shooting HFT for 12 years to a reasonable standard.

sub 12ft/lbs with .177 is my preferred air rifle, but failing that .22 should be FAC in my opinion unless you keep ranges under 30 yards for .22 as a lot of shooters are not experienced enough to know the .22 sub 12 trajectory well enough.
I know lots will stand up and shout how good .22 is, but I used it for 20 years, and reduced my wounded shots dramatically when going to .177 sub 12.Wouldnt think of going back.

Anyone using .22 should try .177 before making a judgement. I certainly don't agree that sub 12 isn't enough though, that's certainly not true.

[Muskett]

I switched from .22 to .177 12ft/lbs from my own experience when a young lad. Shot placement was everything at this power. Nothing else mattered and that I achieved more consistent instant kills with the .177 because it was easier to get perfect pellet placement with them.
John Darling found the same, though later switched back to .22 because he practiced so much and rabbits were his main quarry. He also was fond of the wing root shot on birds, rather than just head. 40m was his maximum range. .22 in the farmyard on say rats also has some benefits. But .177 for perfect shot placement is king.

The 12ft/lbs thing is very UK specific. More power is always helpful if you want to take on longer ranges and bigger critters. But accuracy and shot placement still are the most important factors to deliver a successful outcome. It really doesn't require much "power" to penetrate and destroy a vital organ to be lethal. David and Goliath was just a well placed stone from a sling.

Humans are hunters and if they can't hunt for food will hunt each other, so much do we like it. Thankfully we found farming cereals, potatoes, and animal husbandry, as otherwise we would have hunted everything including ourselves to extinction. Modern man really hasn't evolved much, just requires less meat than he used to. Gets fat if he has too much meat and sugar in his diet, but thats just affluence.

[Barryg]

Well that's rubbish,



Vegan/vegetarian - primitive descriptive term for the village idiot who cannot be taught to hunt, fish or light fires.

Well that's rubbish, LOL






Also you guys need to brush up on your understanding of evolution

DEAN C. says he has REDUCE his wounded shots dramatically when going to .177 sub 12. I wonder what the wounded shots were before.

[secretagentmole]

Well that's rubbish, LOL






Also you guys need to brush up on your understanding of evolution

DEAN C. says he has REDUCE his wounded shots dramatically when going to .177 sub 12. I wonder what the wounded shots were before.

If we had evolved to the point where meat was no longer necessary then our teeth and digestive system would have evolved to match, they have not, end of argument!

Might I suggest you revise your knowledge of evolution?

[Muskett]

Modern dietary and supplements means that as a lifestyle choice vegan or vegetarian is an option.
What I disagree with is that it has holds any "higher morality" grounds than any other dietary system. No animal, or plant, has such morality. Its only humans that are so egoistic that they believe themselves superior. There are even those like Aryan Race who think they are supper superior; the Japanese had the same mentality. Nothing new there, happens regularly throughout our history, we really are up our own arses.
We are talking a few genetic string differences between us all and only a couple more to that of a chimp. I think we should celebrate how diverse we are. Wouldn't it be boring if we were all clone Pamela Anderson and David Hasselhoff? (Or May and Corbyn )
I wonder if there were some dinosaurs that thought themselves superior until some big rock put them in their box?

Dean C: reduce wounds.
The difference between drop dead, and dead within seconds. The French Guillotine wasn't considered instantaneous. As I said previously, we could always nuke them.
Gordon lost another 4 chickens last night. 4 o'clock in the morning, and both of us got there in time to stop a full blood bath. (Two chickens are on life support, well they might survive???) I almost got a beed on one, but I haven't the fastest NV this moment; but at least I know where they are coming from. Probably be an all nighter tonight. (I've got a prolapsed disc and this is no fun at all). Gordon The Farmer is distraught, and been working all day to improve his defences.

Interestingly the lack of CO2 for slaughtering livestock is causing problems. Humans want their Coca-Cola, KFC, and Big Macs. The lack of CO2 is due to the drop in demand for fertiliser, the CO2 being a byproduct of the process. Going vegan or vegetarian doesn't make the world any better a place, ask a slug thats taken slug pellets how humane that death is??

[Barryg]

If we had evolved to the point where meat was no longer necessary then our teeth and digestive system would have evolved to match, they have not, end of argument!

Might I suggest you revise your knowledge of evolution?

Are you seriously saying that we NEED meat in our diet? if you are then you need to look at the people who are vegans these days it includes many champion boxers, a president of the USA, very intelligent people, World strong men, very long lived people, beautiful women and film stars, athletes of all types and so on,
Don't forget if you believe we evolved we were once fish and going a long time back before that bacteria.

I am not sure what you mean about digestive system as we have a long intestine like a herbivore can you eat meat that has gone off raw like a true carnivore can?

Muskett, do you think that Invertebrates like slugs feel pain like vertebrates ?

[secretagentmole]

Are you seriously saying that we NEED neat in our diet? if you are then you need to look at the people who are vegans these days it includes many champion boxers, a president of the USA, very intelligent people, World strong men, very long lived people, beautiful women and film stars, athletes of all types and so on,
Don't forget if you believe we evolved we were once fish and going a long time back before that bacteria.

I am not sure what you mean about digestive system as we have a long intestine like a herbivore can you eat meat that has gone off raw like a true carnivore can?

Muskett, do you think that Invertebrates like slugs feel pain like vertebrates ?

Yes we do need meat, we have not evolved to extract all the nutrients we need from a vegan diet, which is the major reason why most people getting b12 injections are vegan.

https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Vi...hProfessional/

Vegetarians
Strict vegetarians and vegans are at greater risk than lacto-ovo vegetarians and nonvegetarians of developing vitamin B12 deficiency because natural food sources of vitamin B12 are limited to animal foods [5]. Fortified breakfast cereals are one of the few sources of vitamin B12 from plants and can be used as a dietary source of vitamin B12 for strict vegetarians and vegans.

[Barryg]

Yes we do need meat, we have not evolved to extract all the nutrients we need from a vegan diet, which is the major reason why most people getting b12 injections are vegan.

https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Vi...hProfessional/

Vegetarians
Strict vegetarians and vegans are at greater risk than lacto-ovo vegetarians and nonvegetarians of developing vitamin B12 deficiency because natural food sources of vitamin B12 are limited to animal foods [5]. Fortified breakfast cereals are one of the few sources of vitamin B12 from plants and can be used as a dietary source of vitamin B12 for strict vegetarians and vegans.

It is obvious that vegans don't have problem with the lack of b12 these days you only have to look at today's vegans, yes in supplements but thats evolution in the old days you could get b12 from the walter and unwashed veg along with Typhoid

[Muskett]

Invertebrates, all living systems have a damage control report system. Heck even plants. I've got a prolapsed disc and medded up to my eyeballs to counter the pain, but what level other living systems has is well beyond my knowledge. But its not nothing. How that translates into a "bad day" then ask that organism.

The law for invertebrates gives them few rights. Nor does the Law to more sophistical animals like rats which we use some pretty nasty nerve agents on, as we do insects. Fish generally suffocate once landed on industrial fishing ships. As humans when we want something we generally get it and pretty practical and efficient than any real concern over the welfare of what we are taking.
On deer the heart lung shot is lethal but may take a good few seconds for the beast to realise its dead. Same with cutting the throat for Halal meat.

Don't get me wrong if you want to be a vegetarian or vegan go for it, just don't lecture. Its quite doable to have a healthy diet from it if supplements are used or the body has adapted sufficiently. Same goes for Eskimos Inuit who have adapted to a high meat and fat diet with little vegetable matter. i do worry that Vegans may put their children health at risk in their pursuit of lifestyle choice, because it might deny something important that a well balanced diet that includes animal stuffs might have. A good bit of liver and kidney has some super trace elements, just like fish. I want a bit of everything in my diet, including the fruit and veg.
Again, please, Vegan or vegetarian is no more ethically superior to anything else.

Lastly, when I was suckling milk from my mothers tit as a baby, I'm sure I wasn't thinking: "this animal milk fat smoothy tastes sht, can't wait until I'm old enough to go vegan".

We are running two threads here.
Think we have answered the 12ft/lbs bit.
Meat eating? Vermin control?
Vegan and Vegetarianism?? If you want to go through the list of what issues would arise if humans were vegan, then most cows, pigs, chickens, and sheep might have a say in that. Or not as they wouldn't exist. And humans might look more goat than human.

[Muskett]

Lastly when I was suckling milk from my mother's tit as a baby I bet I wasn't thinking:" This animal fat smoothy tastes st, I can't wait until I am old enough to go vegan".

[Barryg]

Invertebrates, all living systems have a damage control report system. Heck even plants. I've got a prolapsed disc and medded up to my eyeballs to counter the pain, but what level other living systems has is well beyond my knowledge. But its not nothing. How that translates into a "bad day" then ask that organism.

The law for invertebrates gives them few rights. Nor does the Law to more sophistical animals like rats which we use some pretty nasty nerve agents on, as we do insects. Fish generally suffocate once landed on industrial fishing ships. As humans when we want something we generally get it and pretty practical and efficient than any real concern over the welfare of what we are taking.
On deer the heart lung shot is lethal but may take a good few seconds for the beast to realise its dead. Same with cutting the throat for Halal meat.

Don't get me wrong if you want to be a vegetarian or vegan go for it, just don't lecture. Its quite doable to have a healthy diet from it if supplements are used or the body has adapted sufficiently. Same goes for Eskimos Inuit who have adapted to a high meat and fat diet with little vegetable matter. i do worry that Vegans may put their children health at risk in their pursuit of lifestyle choice, because it might deny something important that a well balanced diet that includes animal stuffs might have. A good bit of liver and kidney has some super trace elements, just like fish. I want a bit of everything in my diet, including the fruit and veg.
Again, please, Vegan or vegetarian is no more ethically superior to anything else.

Lastly, when I was suckling milk from my mothers tit as a baby, I'm sure I wasn't thinking: "this animal milk fat smoothy tastes sht, can't wait until I'm old enough to go vegan".

We are running two threads here.
Think we have answered the 12ft/lbs bit.
Meat eating? Vermin control?
Vegan and Vegetarianism?? If you want to go through the list of what issues would arise if humans were vegan, then most cows, pigs, chickens, and sheep might have a say in that. Or not as they wouldn't exist. And humans might look more goat than human.

As much as I would like to discuss evolution and veganism with you guys this is a airgun forum, im not sure how it started but in not preaching just trying to point out some scientific facts that are interesting
PS. hope your back is soon better

[DEAN C.]

DEAN C. says he has REDUCE his wounded shots dramatically when going to .177 sub 12. I wonder what the wounded shots were before.

When I was using .22 and not as good a shot as I thought I was...….. then a lot more than I would want to admit, but I cannot remember the last time I wounded something in the last twenty years, not many at all, and that's a lot of kills.

This is why I was stating the problem might be more about marksmanship and how do we control that! But you selected my words a little to suit yourself.


A sub 12ft is deadly when shot placement is correct just as Muskett has said. But that could be said for all shooting sports, or is this thread all about BANNING HUNTING WITH AIR RIFLES !!!!!


Vegan wise everyone can do as they choose for me but don't preach to others please, we are supposed to live in a tolerant society.

[Muskett]

Even I'm losing the thread! Must be the drugs I'm on!!

Marksmanship!
Some of us old blokes here just don't know how lucky we are. I started shooting plinking in the garden shooting up my Airfix kits and soldiers. Then moved on to hunting squirrels. pigeons and rabbits. I was lucky to afford a FWB Sport but my neighbours had Webley Vulcans and BSA Airsporters. My father liked shooting but just left me to it as he was abroad most of the time. My mother banned me from the kitchen with my pinned out pelts from my forays. Had to cook my own squirrels and in truth they were a bit gritty. In those days there were birds everywhere and Starlings were an agricultural pest! I really have witnessed the decline in bird numbers and wildlife in general; insects in particular. (Deer are doing quite well, as are foxes, magpies and badgers. Hedgehogs really badly.)
The amount of freedom we had!!!! No one batted an eyelid at seeing a youngster with an air rifle and carrying a rabbit. I carried on shooting at school, then cadets, then joined the military already a good shot, and my fieldcraft was there already.

Todays youngsters have far more restrictions. Less freedoms and require so much more adult control. Sadly the adults are far too busy. There is so much competition for young people's time and when can they play? When can they get outside? A console shoot'emup isn't marksmanship.
I'm all for the new field target disciplines but wow the kits getting pretty heavy and expensive. Pricing youngsters out, and all a bit serious???? The other big ones are responsibility and respect, neither can be brought off the shelf, they take trust and guidance.

It takes time and application to build up marksmanship. PCP's and better optics can help but only to a certain point. I did it the old school way and started with open sights. Most youngsters jump straight to scopes and state of the art kit. Its probably the best way to go given the time limitations, but I do think they are missing out the "experience" bit.

Hay Ho, shooting is fun. I just hope the next generation get to have a go and find it as great fun as it is. Marksmanship is a challenge worth pursuing as its so rewarding when mastered, though its never completely mastered. Never gets too easy...well ten bulls in a small spotting disk in a row with a well sorted culling rifle at 300m can get a bit repetitive. All good fun, lets try and keep it that way.

Marksmanship and application, responsibility and respect, any good shooting sportsman should have them, plus some restraint from good judgement.
Have fun, be safe.

[andrewM]

I sympathise with Muskett on this.

Even with increased power, requiring FAC status, there is still the question of hold-over and hold-under at increased ranges. There is also the question of the shooter's accuracy and skills and the ability to judge distance.

The 177/22 debate will continue unanswered. I discovered as a teenager that rabbits were sensitive to a head shot with 177 but often birds would escape, as the pellet passed through the ornithological creature, with the energy continuing as the pellet completed its course. However, with a 22, the energy would become entirely absorbed by the quarry, which would be brought down, in the process known often as 'stopping power'.

I have always found a sub 12ft/lb rifle acceptable and it also provides a chance for the quarry to escape as it cannot be used at greater ranges than, say, 40yds. A faster pellet would still encompass the risk of passing out the other side in the case of birds, with the energy continuing within the pellet. Perhaps the new hollow point pellets reduce this to a degree but I am not sure they are much good at expansion upon impact. I wonder if anyone can shed any light on this aspect and the efficiency/effectiveness of hollow points.

As a matter of interest, what acreage size do the Police require for air rifles exceeding 12 ft/lbs, to grant an FAC? Presumably, it is considerably less than for a firearm firing cartridge propelled bullets, given a 22 rifle bullet can travel for a mile.