Why I am Beginning To Change My Mind About Sub12 Hunting

[secretagentmole]

The vitamin B12 is supplement made from bacteria, so it is not actually vegan if you believe that having a flagellum is like having a leg.....

[Barryg]

The vitamin B12 is supplement made from bacteria, so it is not actually vegan if you believe that having a flagellum is like having a leg.....

You guys seem out of touch with modern science LOL
https://majesticwellbeing.co.uk/bett...RoCr5gQAvD_BwE

I am surprised that you haven't mentioned omega 3 now made from algae bypassing the fish.

[Muskett]

Marmite, love it or hate it.....
We can already grow a burger in a laboratory. Soon there will be no need for animals at all, just lots and lots of humans.

One fox down an hour ago (20.00hrs), at least three to go, as that one I hadn't seen before??? Be out again in a few hours with the NV; full moon which isn't so good with my NV as its digi. Its only 200m to my ambush position but I'm hobbling about as if 110! What we put ourselves through to be hunting!!! I just love being out at night.....no people.

02.10hrs fox No:2, 25m from chicken pen. Its had its last KFC, or is that Gordon's Freerange Chickens.

[krisko]

Here we go again. Sigh.

There is no such thing as "stopping power". If there was, we could measure it scientifically. What we can measure are terminal ballistics. We can also medically assess wound effects. Every decent study ever done indicates that effectiveness is a combination of shot placement, energy, and the performance of the projectile in the target, which is a function of both projectile construction and things like projectile stability. With shot placement the most important factor, provided that the ballistics give a basic level of penetration.

As for the .177" "knitting needle", a knitting needle through the cerebral cortex = dead animal.

You cannot get more dead than dead. Either it is dead or not. A .177" air rifle head shot at 8ft-lbs retained energy kills a rabbit just as dead as a .50"BMG burst that cuts it literally in half.

Sorry guys, but this whole thread is getting a bit annoying. Many decades of mass experience show that a reasonable sub-12 air rifle of any type or calibre in the hands of a reasonable shooter at sensible ranges is a perfectly acceptable and humane pest control tool.

Regarding stopping power
.177 has 16mm2 crossection a .25 has double i.e 32mm2 so what do you think which will cause more damage on a shallow target? A .25 will not drill holes in metal or roofing sheets if there is a pass through, alright maybe if you want to shoot through some chicken wires, with a .177 it is going to be lower probability of clipping. Or with night vision when you have to but can’t range properly the .177 is easier a better choice

Both must hurt when you shoot yourself with, can’t make a comparison but the muzzle energy is the same, at least at the muzzle first. Later the .177 is losing big time energy at 40yards the .177 is close to 7fpe while the .25 is still around 8fpe.

[Muskett]

With 12ft/lbs rifles then the .25 drops like a stone. Its pure scale on small critters does make a difference plus the mass of them. Its still just a bigger knitting needle.
As for farmyard equipment and effect on buildings then the heavier pellet makes a larger dent or cracks brittle items like tiles. I find that the .177 penetrates wood more often than .22, the latter often bounces back; the limited experience of .25 even more so. All can chip brick, dent metal sheeting, crack slate, or bust tiles. I find the .177 either does less damage or makes a hole. The .22 a bit less, but more on brittle stuff.

You just need to look at the spent pellets squidge that collect on the backstop plate on your zero range. How plastic the lead is at different ranges and energies. The bigger the pellet the more integrity they keep.
All do damage to anything they hit; so don't hit things that matter. Keep it into the dirt or stuff that doesn't matter like wood pallets. The odd hit on brickwork is usually fine but not too many into one area; the damage can mount up.
All sheeting doesn't like it. A leaking roof is a pain to fix.

Lastly, lead pellets sure like ricocheting. Wood they will come straight back at you. Metal zing off at any angle. They can skip on concrete. You don't want livestock hit with a ricochet. Think backstop all the time, and double think it too. You pull the trigger you are responsible.

Not sure if I've helped answer your question but all adds to the knowledge.

[DEAN C.]

How many conversations are going on here!

One minute I thought I was agreeing with Muskett ….then he chipped back at me, I think! Then someone is preaching about B12 injections and veggies ruling the world, and then the .177/22 debate all over again.

Who the heck started this conversation...…. I've lost track. What was it about?

All I know is an accurate pellet sub 12 kills dead, twitch or no twitch. If anyone eats meat or not is their right of choice.

[secretagentmole]

Regarding stopping power
.177 has 16mm2 crossection a .25 has double i.e 32mm2 so what do you think which will cause more damage on a shallow target? A .25 will not drill holes in metal or roofing sheets if there is a pass through, alright maybe if you want to shoot through some chicken wires, with a .177 it is going to be lower probability of clipping. Or with night vision when you have to but can’t range properly the .177 is easier a better choice

Both must hurt when you shoot yourself with, can’t make a comparison but the muzzle energy is the same, at least at the muzzle first. Later the .177 is losing big time energy at 40yards the .177 is close to 7fpe while the .25 is still around 8fpe.

Both of which are enough to introduce Benjamin Bunny to the black rabbit if you hit it between the eye and ear....

[Muskett]

How many conversations are going on here!

One minute I thought I was agreeing with Muskett ….then he chipped back at me, I think! Then someone is preaching about B12 injections and veggies ruling the world, and then the .177/22 debate all over again.

Who the heck started this conversation...…. I've lost track. What was it about?

All I know is an accurate pellet sub 12 kills dead, twitch or no twitch. If anyone eats meat or not is their right of choice.

No, I think I was agreeing with you. I'm hoping you will leave me that Pro Sport "my precious" in your will to me!! No hurry
Think at least three if not four subjects last count.

I'm too drugged up on pain killers for my back to go to the pub so this conversation had to suffice!! The end result was its an individual's "call" if anyone want to hunt with 12ft/lbs air rifles or not, and if they do what range to keep to if you are a true sportsman that respects his quarry. The newer kit can get 15 more meters than the older stuff which is best kept to farmyard ranges, and thats with good marksmanship and practice.
Loads of different views. Made Countryfile look a biased skewed thing that it is.

[Skipper]

I have read some utter shite on this post. Especially in the first few pages.

[Muskett]

Well that skippered that one. Probably had come to its natural end.

[keithy]

Regarding stopping power the bigger the calibre the better the stopping power on head shots. As an example give a 10 year old a small pebble and half a house brick which one would you prefer him to throw at you!!

[Murphy]

Regarding stopping power the bigger the calibre the better the stopping power on head shots. As an example give a 10 year old a small pebble and half a house brick which one would you prefer him to throw at you!!

Which has more power then?

A 12ftlb .25 pellet,

or

a 12ftlb .177 pellet ?!

[Waisted]

In reply to Murphy which has more stopping power, the pellet with the highest BC Balistic Cohefficient rating will have the greater stopping power down range.

[angrybear]

Which has more power then?

A 12ftlb .25 pellet,

or

a 12ftlb .177 pellet ?!

In reply to Murphy which has more stopping power, the pellet with the highest BC Balistic Cohefficient rating will have the greater stopping power down range.

Obviously they leave the muzzle with the same "power", BUT,

The .177 is likely to pass right through & if it does the "power" or rather "impact energy" remaining in it is then rather obviously wasted, as it travels on to hit the backstop.

If the .25 remains within the target then all of the "impact energy" has equally obviously been transferred in to shock trauma.

[snock]

It does not help to conflate muzzle energy and terminal ballistic effect. They may be related, but only after the interaction with another element.

'Stopping power' is a somewhat misleading Leyman term.
I prefer to define it as the biological effect of kinetic energy transfer from projectile to animal to cessate basic biological function.