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Thread: Dive Bottle Test - Short & Curly's?

  1. #16
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    I recently had a cylinder tested (passed). The Inspection and Test Certificate has a customer signed statement that the cylinder and valve will be tested in accordance with EN 1802, EN 1968 or BS 5430 and should either the cylinder OR valve fail THEY will be destroyed and or not returned to the customer.

    The way it's written seems to give them licence to scrap both even if either one fails! That would seem to be a liberty, as it forces the customer to stick with them for whichever part requires replacement.

    However, if you were to take the cylinder elsewhere you would end up with two bills for testing plus replacement parts. So yes, short and curlies comes to mind.

    Ask them to demo the no go gauge failure when you next go in.

    If it is the main air outlet (DIN connection), it's huge with a course thread, as you say does not need much to compress an o-ring seal, no need to apply gorrilla force on the threads.
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  2. #17
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    Pretty sure the last bottle I had tested, I didn't have to sign anything when I handed it over.
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  3. #18
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    I would just buy another bottle and tell them to scrap it! not worth the mental anguish and at £100 thats more than half of the cost of a new one, plus I would be surprised if they used a Midland Jubilee valve which is designed for airgun use, not those horrible other valves which I see from time to time.

    You could also buy your own Midland valve and just ask them to fit that, then you would only pay the test fee and that may really annoy them if all they are trying to do is sell you a valve that you dont need!

    Truth is you will probably never know!

  4. #19
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    BTW the NO GO Turns on my certificate state <1 for the valve threads and cylinder (as you stated 2 Max).

    Also the certificate states valve destroyed Y/N, so they might have destroyed your valve already!

    Suppose this highlights the potential risks with buying used equipment (even though yours was not used).
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  5. #20
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    The cylinder tests are not there for fill reasons they're there for transportation reasons. You cannot transport an out of test cylinder unless under certain conditions, which you're not able to meet.

    I had a cylinder fail after it's 2nd test, same reason, thread go-no-go test failed.

    I believe this might be a new addition to the test, so I might guess that some bottles were made not within tolerance for the new test... or the last test centre over stretched my thread. My cylinder, like yours was a 3L (although long not stumpy) and only used for decanting so rarely went below 180 bar and not above 320 so wouldn't experience the more extreme pressure range of a dive cylinder used for such. It also had a rust spot despite only ever having had breathing air put in it...

    My other 12L that failed (got stung on a camoflauged 2 year still in test mate...) wasn't allowed to be taken back either.

    Different dive shop.

    £61 obviously isn't the best news but it's better than scrap. And the likelyhood is another go-no-go gauge will fail it anyway.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobF View Post
    £61 obviously isn't the best news but it's better than scrap. And the likelyhood is another go-no-go gauge will fail it anyway.
    Although I hate to admit it, I can't see any other alternative that won't end up costing me more and for no overall gain.

    I suppose as long as this thread makes others aware of what to possibly expect when taking a bottle in for a test, then it hasn't been time to wasted.

    Thanks lads.

  7. #22
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    On the cylinder test the cylinder threads are checked and the mating valve threads ie m25x2 or 3/4bsp etc not any other threads that do not make up the valve to cylinder seal < The 5/8bsp din fitting should not be touched and as far as i am aware is not required under the relevant standards.
    If the valve was a special with some unusual thread on the filling/outlet port ie unf/unc as long as the actual valve to cylinder thread gauges up then it has passed but they cannot fill to test the cylinder/valve seal then both the cylinder and the valve should be returned to you unfitted as the hydro test only applies to the cylinder.
    I tested many thousands of cylinders working for MDE and that was the set procedure then.

    If you can do it take the valve out of the cylinder and just give them the cylinder to test.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by acmsarh View Post
    On the cylinder test the cylinder threads are checked and the mating valve threads ie m25x2 or 3/4bsp etc not any other threads that do not make up the valve to cylinder seal < The 5/8bsp din fitting should not be touched and as far as i am aware is not required under the relevant standards.
    If the valve was a special with some unusual thread on the filling/outlet port ie unf/unc as long as the actual valve to cylinder thread gauges up then it has passed but they cannot fill to test the cylinder/valve seal then both the cylinder and the valve should be returned to you unfitted as the hydro test only applies to the cylinder.
    I tested many thousands of cylinders working for MDE and that was the set procedure then.

    If you can do it take the valve out of the cylinder and just give them the cylinder to test.
    That's a good point. The recent certificate that I have refers to ''Valve Threads' and 'Cylinder Threads', it does not distinguish, highlight or spell out that the DIN outlet is checked. Could it be that the test centre have added this check out of 'goodwill' to ensure the user has safe valve outlet?
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  9. #24
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    What you have to be aware of as well is how they remove and refit the valve , all of the valves have a different profile ( you imagine a socket that has to fit over a valve to remove it) now at MDE we used to make them to fit any valve profile but a lot of places did not want to pay the £100+ for the real deal so a big spanner used to make do and with the 5/8 din valves an 5/8 thread was machined onto a bar and the valve was taken out using that plus a hammer and refitted the same way and not using a torque wrench to refit , The over zealous use of the hammer could result in the din threads distorting sideways.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by secretagentmole View Post
    Gildenburgh???
    I wouldn't like to say...

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimstraight View Post
    seems to give them licence to scrap both even if either one fails! That would seem to be a liberty, as it forces the customer to stick with them for whichever part requires replacement.
    That's my point entirely. For example, if a car fails it's MOT, you can take it where you like to get the necessary work done and then return to the original MOT station to have it checked / confirmed safe / certificated . Don't get me wrong, I know that the £61.00 extra I've been asked to pay is nothing compared to what could happen with an unsafe 300 bar bottle but still, I think this policy is just so open to being abused by scrupulous operators and let's face it they are everywhere unfortunately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimstraight View Post
    If it is the main air outlet (DIN connection), it's huge with a course thread, as you say does not need much to compress an o-ring seal, no need to apply gorrilla force on the threads.
    Yep, threads on the outlet (DIN connection) is what failed the go, no go test and like I said initially, very rarely used and when I did, I only ever used used hand pressure to attach the whip. I can't for the life of me understand how these threads could be damaged so easily given the light use. That's where my suspicions started to creep in.. My 12Lt Faber is older and was purchased secondhand, so I expect that will be a definite fail but I'll see when the time comes which isn't too long away.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitslayer View Post
    That's my point entirely. For example, if a car fails it's MOT, you can take it where you like to get the necessary work done and then return to the original MOT station to have it checked / confirmed safe / certificated . Don't get me wrong, I know that the £61.00 extra I've been asked to pay is nothing compared to what could happen with an unsafe 300 bar bottle but still, I think this policy is just so open to being abused by scrupulous operators and let's face it they are everywhere unfortunately.



    Yep, threads on the outlet (DIN connection) is what failed the go, no go test and like I said initially, very rarely used and when I did, I only ever used used hand pressure to attach the whip. I can't for the life of me understand how these threads could be damaged so easily given the light use. That's where my suspicions started to creep in.. My 12Lt Faber is older and was purchased secondhand, so I expect that will be a definite fail but I'll see when the time comes which isn't too long away.
    So it's the air outlet that's failed... So what about they remove the failed item and give you back your bottle? You buy the valve assembly you want from best fittings and your done??! I can't see how they can refuse to return the non damaged bit!! It should be policy that they refund some of the test money to the value of the scrap if not... They must make a pretty penny on all that brass & stainless!!! Irritates me because that is a wee take!
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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by acmsarh View Post
    What you have to be aware of as well is how they remove and refit the valve , all of the valves have different profile ( you imagine a socket that has to fit over a valve to remove it) now at MDE we used to make them to fit any valve profile but a lot of places did not want to pay the £100+ for the real deal so a big spanner used to make do and with the 5/8 din valves an 5/8 thread was machined onto a bar and the valve was taken out using that plus a hammer and refitted the same way and not using a torque wrench to refit , The over zealous use of the hammer could result in the din threads distorting sideways.
    That is a very good point. It says on my Test Certificate Valve Torque 100 Nm (75 ft.lb), if that was applied as a side load via the DIN outlet thread it might not do it any favours, worst still if it was an impact/shock load to loosen it. One would hope the EN/BS lays down the appropriate method, maybe not.
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitslayer View Post
    ...... My 12Lt Faber is older and was purchased secondhand, so I expect that will be a definite fail but I'll see when the time comes which isn't too long away.
    Not necessarily, my cylinder was bought used (from a very helpful chap that had looked after it). It had passed a previous 5 year check (with his chosen reliable test centre), and has just passed its second 5 year check.
    Treat Others As You Would Wish To Be Treated.

  15. #30
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    There's little can be done but I'd ask to be shown the valve & the test it has failed and mention that you were not aware the DIN outlet was tested under BS EN 1802 only the cyl-valve fit, better still if you know the thread & can refer to the cyl-valve thread by size, I'd even ask to see where it says the outlet needs testing in the procedure, & make it clear you think they have caused any damage to make it fail.

    If they think you know your stuff they're not going to try it on

    Luckily I trust the chap I take my gear to & he knows I used to work on HP gas systems & cylinders.

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