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Thread: Dive Bottle Test - Short & Curly's?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by angrybear View Post
    There's little can be done but I'd ask to be shown the valve & the test it has failed and mention that you were not aware the DIN outlet was tested under BS EN 1802 only the cyl-valve fit, better still if you know the thread & can refer to the cyl-valve thread by size, I'd even ask to see where it says the outlet needs testing in the procedure, & make it clear you think they have caused any damage to make it fail.

    If they think you know your stuff they're not going to try it on

    Luckily I trust the chap I take my gear to & he knows I used to work on HP gas systems & cylinders.
    This sounds like a sensible approach... At least if nothing else it may make them think twice about trying it on (if that is what they are doing!) if not then theory would have it they should be sympathetic and at least properly explain and demonstrate what is happening.
    "corners should be round" Theo Evo .22/.177 - Meopta 6x42, DS huntsman classic .20 vortex razor LH 3-15x42 under supervised boingrati tuning by Tony L & Tinbum, HW77 forest green - Nikon prostaff 2-7x32 plex.

  2. #32
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    I had 3 bottles tested last year, 1 was very old and rough, 1 was old in good condition and 1 was fairly new in good condition, The two older ones had been out of test for a very long time but they all passed without any problems whatsoever. I would be demanding they show me the faulty part before I hand over payment.

  3. #33
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    Asked my local today whilst getting 4 fills, they said about 2 a year fail that particular test, so considering that they fill dozens of bottles a day 5 days a week, you are either extremelly unlucky or being scammed to make up the bottom line!

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spray1Mark View Post
    Asked my local today whilst getting 4 fills, they said about 2 a year fail that particular test, so considering that they fill dozens of bottles a day 5 days a week, you are either extremelly unlucky or being scammed to make up the bottom line!
    That's my gut feel but I can assure you I bet I'm not the last.

  5. #35
    JerryD is offline Will only use cherry lipbalm
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    Personally, I'd wait for Parwins every time around Peterborough. The only people taking the valve out are the testers, and as said, it's very rare for a thread failure.......

    I know Paul is in for a bypass, just hope he gets through that and is back in the shop soon...







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    Jerry

  6. #36
    JerryD is offline Will only use cherry lipbalm
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    £61 my @rse.......they'd be making 20+% even if they bought at retail!





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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryD View Post
    £61 my @rse.......they'd be making 20+% even if they bought at retail!.
    Yes Jerry and there's very little I can do about it and that was why I posted. Now they've got my bottle I have to pay or they scrap it - short & curly's.

    And... even if I was to somehow get them back I'd still have to pay for the test and I wouldn't be surprised if they purposely damage the threads (if not already) so that any second opinions / tests would have the same outcome.

    I've learnt my lesson and I'll just have to pay out this time. Will go elsewhere next time. But I don't know of any other local testers other than Parwins.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitslayer View Post
    Yes Jerry and there's very little I can do about it and that was why I posted. Now they've got my bottle I have to pay or they scrap it - short & curly's.

    And... even if I was to somehow get them back I'd still have to pay for the test and I wouldn't be surprised if they purposely damage the threads (if not already) so that any second opinions / tests would have the same outcome.

    I've learnt my lesson and I'll just have to pay out this time. Will go elsewhere next time. But I don't know of any other local testers other than Parwins.
    Follow the appeal procedure.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by rancidtom View Post
    Follow the appeal procedure.
    IMPARTIALITY AND COMPLAINTS STATEMENT

    APPEALS & COMPLAINTS

    IDEST operates a formal appeals process should a customer believe that their Cylinder Inspection results, following an exhaustive discussion with the Test Centre, are not well founded.
    Any appeal must be made in writing to the IDEST Administration Office within one month of the date of the Inspection and substantiated with evidence, any grounds to make such appeal.

    And as I see it, that's the issue, I haven't any evidence. I can't prove a thing... They have the equipment and no matter how much I go on about how little use it had and how careful I was with it, I can't show that the threads were OK before I handed them over. Unfortunately, I think it'd be a LOT of time poorly spent and for no gain. You may think I'm being defeatist, and if I'm overlooking something please point it out to me.

    Thanks again.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryD View Post
    £61 my @rse.......they'd be making 20+% even if they bought at retail!





    .
    By the time you add postage and the work then it’s not far off. What do you want to save the £10 of vat and the trade discount?

    The thing holds 4500 pounds per every square inch. Threads fail. I’ve had one go on a bottle that was only on its 2nd test. Same deal. Unless you think you’ve been caught in a wholesale scam for what seems to be about £20 profit and only affects two people who ever come in here then the likelihood is the thread has failed and the simple fix is to get those qualified to fix it to fix it.

    Sod it, have a tantrum, save £11 and put the thing in with a set of grips. It’s only 300 bar. In fact why bother buying new? See if you can get one of the 1/2 dicky out almost out of test bottles on social media and save yourself more.

    £60 on something that can let go and cover a football field in under a second when it does...
    Last edited by RobF; 06-07-2018 at 12:49 AM.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobF View Post
    ..... Threads fail. I’ve had one go on a bottle that was only on its 2nd test. Same deal.....
    Out of interest was that the DIN outlet?

    Think it would do us all a favour if the OP asks the test centre to confirm where in the BS/EN procedures it requires this test. I looked on the SITA website and the various downloads are scant in detail (deliberately so as to have to buy the BS/EN to find out), it just refers to 'valve threads' and cylinder threads. So for an airgun valve do they also test the thread for the gauge? All this would be useful to know, as we are paying for the service, it should be transparent. Good to know if all centres do check all threads (I doubt it somehow, the guage threads can differ on valves).

    Would it be possible for the DIN outlet threads to be comprised by silicone grease (from an o-ring seal)? Not suggesting that here, but just wondering. Probably many other potential causes including dirty threads, excess force, marginal production tolerance, poor thread on mating parts, test centre handling.

    Presumably when a cylinder is filled to 300 bar, the connection is tight enough (but not excessive) to compress the interface o-ring, and then the 300 bar pressure on the face of the connectors is transferred through the threads. Similarly when filling an airgun from the cylinder. Hence all mating threads need to be in very good condition/very well matched.
    Last edited by Aimstraight; 06-07-2018 at 11:38 AM. Reason: Typo 'buy'
    Treat Others As You Would Wish To Be Treated.

  12. #42
    JerryD is offline Will only use cherry lipbalm
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobF View Post
    By the time you add postage and the work then it’s not far off. What do you want to save the £10 of vat and the trade discount?

    The thing holds 4500 pounds per every square inch. Threads fail. I’ve had one go on a bottle that was only on its 2nd test. Same deal. Unless you think you’ve been caught in a wholesale scam for what seems to be about £20 profit and only affects two people who ever come in here then the likelihood is the thread has failed and the simple fix is to get those qualified to fix it to fix it.

    Sod it, have a tantrum, save £11 and put the thing in with a set of grips. It’s only 300 bar. In fact why bother buying new? See if you can get one of the 1/2 dicky out almost out of test bottles on social media and save yourself more.

    £60 on something that can let go and cover a football field in under a second when it does...
    Rob, I'm not belittling the dangers: HPA is nasty stuff if it goes wrong.

    The point is that a test centre has to remove the valve anyway to inspect the bottle - no call for muckling it at home with pliers, they have the right kit and training. They get the valves wholesale price, and removing and refitting the valve is part of the test process. Why does this test centre in question have to charge over the odds for something that cost them a lot less than we would pay and would have to do anyway? It's the valve that's mullered, not the bottle so why are they not even returning the bottle sans valve?

    There are 2 test centres around Peterborough: one is a pain and Parwin's are good... Paul will show you what's wrong, no withholding, just a fair test process with fully transparent information.



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    Jerry

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryD View Post
    Rob, I'm not belittling the dangers: HPA is nasty stuff if it goes wrong.

    The point is that a test centre has to remove the valve anyway to inspect the bottle - no call for muckling it at home with pliers, they have the right kit and training. They get the valves wholesale price, and removing and refitting the valve is part of the test process. Why does this test centre in question have to charge over the odds for something that cost them a lot less than we would pay and would have to do anyway? It's the valve that's mullered, not the bottle so why are they not even returning the bottle sans valve?

    There are 2 test centres around Peterborough: one is a pain and Parwin's are good... Paul will show you what's wrong, no withholding, just a fair test process with fully transparent information.

    .
    I know. But sometimes on these threads we can make it seem this is a casual item or people can get that idea.

    If they return the bottle it's out of test it involves the OP taking it away, which as I am lead to believe is against the transport regulations which is what the test is about.... you can fill HPA at home without a test, it's not illegal or anything. It's when you move them that matters. The cylinders have to be either in test to be moved, or destroyed. Like an MOT there's a certain set of regulations for testing, and on failure there's a certain set of regulations for when that happens.

    The reason they have to be destroyed is so when they are scrapped someone doesn't need to inspect them to make sure they're safe for recycling, they are no longer cylinders, just 3 bits of cylinder.

    The centre is a business. They get things in at X price, they do Y work and charge Z. I don't see why it should make a loss for it's time and expertise to give someone a £10 or so discount. They'd still have to charge VAT.

    Now there's a really simple way of solving this, instead of wasting all this time on the internet someone could phone Idest and ask, or failing that 2-3 test centres and see what they say about giving a bottle back when it's failed. Once you have that info then you can move on. It would be interesting because I had a cylinder fail once and I didn't get to keep the head... but then I'm not that tempted to do a diy assembly after buying a cylinder and I suspect the for the costs involved it wouldn't have been much of a saving.

    When I take my bottles in, I trust the guys who do the work because they're the qualified ones and they don't want to upset me because I then keep going back for air... I know it's upsetting, I've had 2 fail, one never been mistreated and was just 10 years old, but it happens and that's why there is a test for all these bits because it does happen.
    Last edited by RobF; 06-07-2018 at 12:01 PM.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimstraight View Post
    Out of interest was that the DIN outlet?

    Think it would do us all a favour if the OP asks the test centre to confirm where in the BS/EN procedures it requires this test. I looked on the SITA website and the various downloads are scant in detail (deliberately so as to have to buy the BS/EN to find out), it just refers to 'valve threads' and cylinder threads. So for an airgun valve do they also test the thread for the gauge? All this would be useful to know, as we are paying for the service, it should be transparent. Good to know if all centres do check all threads (I doubt it somehow, the guage threads can differ on valves).

    Would it be possible for the DIN outlet threads to be comprised by silicone grease (from an o-ring seal)? Not suggesting that here, but just wondering. Probably many other potential causes including dirty threads, excess force, marginal production tolerance, poor thread on mating parts, test centre handling.

    Presumably when a cylinder is filled to 300 bar, the connection is tight enough (but not excessive) to compress the interface o-ring, and then the 300 bar pressure on the face of the connectors is transferred through the threads. Similarly when filling an airgun from the cylinder. Hence all mating threads need to be in very good condition/very well matched.
    I can't remember asking to be honest. I had assumed it was the neck thread, but thinking of it.

    Yes, I've seen thread stretch on airgun cylinders which are screwed on and off with pressure in the cylinder because the pressure releases before it is all the way home. So it could very well happen on the outlet under certain circumstances. I would say that's a definited concern if they are using spacers to seal 200 bar adapters in 300 bar bottles... this means there's less threads engaged and therefore more pressure per thread, and therefore force per thread which could make them stretch perhaps.

    The threads on the outlet are fairly common, DIN. There's some 232 neck threads which are less common now and the heads are no longer made... I know this because we were warned about it when I last filled, if the threads go the bottle is shagged because they can't get a new head to fit.

    The go-no-go is something that appears to be recent and differs from tests abroad. I saw it mentioned in some technical article when people were having arguements about testing here vs abroad.

    I really get why people aren't happy when a bottle fails. But why reach for the conspiracy handle when it's just a simple test for your safety? Why would a shop risk pissing you off over £10-20 to them when you'd be doing that a year in fills for the next 5-10 years plus whatever else you spend there...?

  15. #45
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    Thanks Jerry..

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