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Thread: For crying out loud!

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parabuteo View Post
    Ball is a nomenclature used in the military to denote standard FMJ ammunition as against AP, API, Tracer etc. It is symolised as a solid yellow circle on packaging. Special Ball would usually be match loaded for mill contracts such as BH Mod 262
    OK, I got it totally wrong then
    Custom BSA S10 .22 PAX Phoenix Mk 2 .22 Custom Titan Manitou .22 (JB BP) HW77 .22 FWB Sport Mk1 .22 Sharp Ace .22 Crossman 600 .22 Berretta 92 .20 Desert Eagle .177

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballisticboy View Post
    But what if that rifle consistently puts its pellets in a small group somewhere you are not aiming at, is it still accurate?
    I refer the honourable member to the answer I gave some time ago. 'If a rifle consistency puts its pellets exactly where I've aimed them, and thus produces a small group at the ranges I need - I'm calling that rifle 'accurate'.'

    If the POI changes due to some fault in the rifle, then that rifle is no longer consistently accurate, cannot be relied upon to do its job, and would never be described by me as 'accurate'.

    I hope that clarifies my stance on what contitutes an 'accurate' rifle.
    If you don't know enough to judge - don't judge

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geezer View Post
    I has a 2.2mm Weerrack 80k it makes 12 feet pds. 3x9x40 telly scopes included.
    any slugs included

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parabuteo View Post
    Ball is a nomenclature used in the military to denote standard FMJ ammunition as against AP, API, Tracer etc. It is symolised as a solid yellow circle on packaging. Special Ball would usually be match loaded for mill contracts such as BH Mod 262
    Correct. But the name dates back to the round ball musket days two hundred or more years ago.

    When there was only ball and blank (and occasionally some weird things like “buck and ball”, when the full-calibre ball was accompanied by a few round balls of smaller - buckshot - calibre as a sort of shotgun-style load intended to increase short-range hit probability at the expense of longer-range accuracy).

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry D View Post
    I refer the honourable member to the answer I gave some time ago. 'If a rifle consistency puts its pellets exactly where I've aimed them, and thus produces a small group at the ranges I need - I'm calling that rifle 'accurate'.'

    If the POI changes due to some fault in the rifle, then that rifle is no longer consistently accurate, cannot be relied upon to do its job, and would never be described by me as 'accurate'.

    I hope that clarifies my stance on what contitutes an 'accurate' rifle.
    You guys agree more than disagree.

    There are basically three schools here.

    Military: consistency = group size. Accuracy = capability of placing a group, whatever it’s size, centred on POA.

    Target guys: as above, but including “precision”, which in my humble opinion just confuses things, although I think it is consistency plus or times or divided by accuracy. In other words, hitting the blooming target.

    Journalism: a mix of the above, and it always has been. I have books from decades ago by great writers like Jack O’Connor (love that guy) telling me that Rifle X is “accurate”, as a mechanical function of action design and barrel quality, when the military guys would say it is instead “consistent”, but it’s accuracy is down to ergonomics. Or that a different rifle is also “accurate” but that seems a function of a good stock, nice trigger, and excellent sights.

    I think we have to accept the slightly different lexicons and let it be. There is at least a century’s history of slightly different meanings in different circumstances. We won’t change that.

    The bottom line is can your shooting tool reliably hit what you want to hit? If so, it is a good tool. If not, it is not.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geezer View Post

    Military: consistency = group size. Accuracy = capability of placing a group, whatever it’s size, centred on POA.

    Target guys: as above, but including “precision”, which in my humble opinion just confuses things, although I think it is consistency plus or times or divided by accuracy. In other words, hitting the blooming target.
    Precision is the combination of accuracy and consistency and is thus what most people are aiming to achieve at all ranges, known or unknown.

    The problem is that in the US consistency is called precision but accuracy retains its definition, at least in industry and in the ballistic data and research organisations.

    The reason for the different names is in the source of the errors, accuracy is largely due to deterministic errors where as consistency is largely due to non deterministic errors. It helps a great deal in finding the sources of the problems when precision is not all it should be.

  7. #82
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    From breach to muzzle..... or is it 'once more unto the breech, dear friends, once more'...…….ooerr, there's not a lot of room in 'ere is their?
    I need to loose some weight from the gun...…….surely leaving all the nuts, bolts and screws lose will achieve this?

  8. #83
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    I think Ballisticboy is best qualified to respond. Laymans terms may differ, it's not a pendanty contest (yet).

    I always find this diagram useful to explain the difference if that's needed.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobF View Post
    I think Ballisticboy is best qualified to respond. Laymans terms may differ, it's not a pendanty contest (yet).

    I always find this diagram useful to explain the difference if that's needed.
    That reference is good but it does use the US definition of precision, not the UK/Europe version which can sometimes confuse.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunbeam View Post
    50 BMG, pity I don't live in a country I could own one
    You live in the UK, so you CAN have a .50cal BMG rifle, just like the ~130 other .50cal shooters here. They are members of the Fifty Calibre Shooting Association of GB - google them to learn all about it.

    Having a FAC already is a good step, though, as it implies that you are already knowledgeable about live Section 1 firearms.

    You just need to be fairly well off, though - one of the top-class UK shooters sends between 1500 and 1700 rounds downrange every year in practice - at £17.50 per shot. Realoding equipment is a mite costy, too - figure on spending around a grand to get going. Each shot likely costs around a £1.25 in powder alone, and each of his four rifles cost him around £10K, too.

    tac

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by bighit View Post
    I remember seeing a deleted post on here where the OP spelled Anschutz right for someone to say its spelt Anschultz
    One of the two elderly brothers in our club called his target rifle an 'Auschwitz'.

    tac

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacfoley View Post
    You live in the UK, so you CAN have a .50cal BMG rifle, ...

    - at £17.50 per shot.
    Strewth! Now I feel mean shopping around for the cheapest R10's!!

  13. #88
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    I can't stand people using baby talk when referring to a shotgun. It's NOT a shottie!

    Chris

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