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Thread: What constitutes a world class course ?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by thumbhole View Post
    I have been setting courses for HFT and FT for over 20 years ... no one has cleared a course I have set in either.
    I don't think that's a great accolade.

    I think the desire of course setters to try and make sure no one clears their courses has been a negative in HFT/FT.

    As stated above only a very few shooters will be in the very top class ( as good as it gets ).

    So for me a good course has a number of targets that put shooters out of a normal 'practice range' comfort zone ... but that doesn't mean ridiculous angles that test flexibility instead of shooting ability. If a top shooter gets every shot 95% or better right then that course should be cleared.

    The problem will always be wind. No matter what course someone puts out ( within rules ) on a still day ( very rare ) then top shooters will be capable of clearing it ... if they get all aspects of every shot right. As we introduce wind and that wind gets up to a certain level, then some targets are lottery targets. I've talked about this many times. Very steady stances for the greatest majority of shots in both sports have driven course setters to push lots of targets right to the edge of the rules re kill size and range ... and angles. So when you get those courses and the wind is above a certain level ( doesn't have to be a lot ), then there is too much chance in too many targets for even the best, and for the weaker shooters it can be a pointless day.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by bozzer View Post
    I don't think that's a great accolade.

    I think the desire of course setters to try and make sure no one clears their courses has been a negative in HFT/FT.

    As stated above only a very few shooters will be in the very top class ( as good as it gets ).

    So for me a good course has a number of targets that put shooters out of a normal 'practice range' comfort zone ... but that doesn't mean ridiculous angles that test flexibility instead of shooting ability. If a top shooter gets every shot 95% or better right then that course should be cleared.

    The problem will always be wind. No matter what course someone puts out ( within rules ) on a still day ( very rare ) then top shooters will be capable of clearing it ... if they get all aspects of every shot right. As we introduce wind and that wind gets up to a certain level, then some targets are lottery targets. I've talked about this many times. Very steady stances for the greatest majority of shots in both sports have driven course setters to push lots of targets right to the edge of the rules re kill size and range ... and angles. So when you get those courses and the wind is above a certain level ( doesn't have to be a lot ), then there is too much chance in too many targets for even the best, and for the weaker shooters it can be a pointless day.

    Something must be right as we have a regular attendance of 50+ shooters weekly. My courses have something for everyone we have shooters from as low as 7 up to 80+ so foot numbers dictate. I held a round for the MFTA which I won't get into the politics. 31 turned up a lot of effort for two people to do and only 3 days to do it in. My Daughter also suffered an epileptic fit during us doing it. Another story on its own. Any way lot of effort for a small turnout.
    During the MFTA shoot we had 76 on our normal club course need I say more. This is where we concentrate our efforts. I think shooting should be shooting to what ever degree the person wants to take it. I am happy to accommodate everyone whatever their ability.
    Our club caters for everyone that is more important than a few individuals.

  3. #33
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    Nothing to do with politics

    Politics has nothing to do with my comment ,Marc.
    A lot of effort ,a poorly child or 3 days were not the problem , the targets were.
    I suffered for about 2 hours on that course , shooting about half of it.
    When I finally chose dinner over any more misery and walked off to the car park ,both of your marshals were sat in the car park as well, clearly very embarrassed.
    The only two faults I found with the course were Poor quality targets and no one around to account for them.
    If your targets are getting seriously pounded by your 76 shooters each week then throw away is fine ,but get a set of quality targets for comp days.
    You have a good piece of land that I know offers some serious wind at times ,so show case it .
    Simon

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by thumbhole View Post
    So over to you what do you think makes a world class course?
    My opinion is a course that is as tough as any other that will test the very best shooters ... but is clearable if the best shooters get everything 95% right on all targets. Again, in my opinion, if you have gone 20 years and no one has cleared one course, then there are maybe a number of targets that include too much chance.

    You asked for opinions ( " over to you " ) and then seem to be defending your courses. If you are happy with your courses and attendances and feedback then that's a different matter than what people on here think are 'World Class'.

    I'm not judging your courses ... I'm saying what I think is "World Class". I don't think that is a course that even the best shooters can't clear in 20 years.

    That really has nothing to do with accommodating all levels of shooters. To a lower end shooter a target that is just about gettable by the best in the world may well be beyond them, without a lot of luck ( so a low hit rate ), so it doesn't matter to lower shooters if those targets are just gettable by the best or have too much of a lottery even for the best. They will still enjoy knocking down as many as they can on the 'easier' targets and knocking the odd tough one down ( luck or not ).

  5. #35
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    One set to worlds rules. In hft you have two sets to choose from, in ft, one. With ft you have a considerable set of rules and guidance as to how that should be done, and in addition to how the event should be run.

    There’s nothing in the rules about if a course is cleared or not making it or a certain class. In the past decade about 6 people have cleared a GP (no one has cleared more than one) and only one person has cleared a course in the worlds, albeit they only cleared one of the 3 courses. The first hft worlds was also cleared both days by the same person.

    Terms should as world class are often taken as being of the standing of the being in the class found at a world championships. To that end it helps to have some experience of what that is, the more the better.

  6. #36
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    Rob

    Do you think those stats are good?

    Put a different way ... in all those years and only 6 clearances on a GP and 1 in a World ... has there only been 7 occasions when a top shooter has ranged every target well enough, judged the wind well enough and got the shot off well enough ... or has there been many occasions where a top shooter has done absolutely nothing wrong, but kill size, target distance and wind has meant that they didn't clear the course.

    My point is that if someone does nothing wrong, but wind ( variable ) has meant that it's almost impossible to knock down a certain target down every time ( even if you do exactly the same thing every time ), then are those targets too small, too far in that wind?

  7. #37
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    Often when someone comments about a course ( HFT for instance ), out come the red ants and the comments along the lines of ... Well the comps are always fully booked ( I don't know if they still are ) so they must be doing something right.

    Airgun shooting is very much a minority sport. Most airgunners don't have a choice of several comps within an hour's drive on Sundays. So if there is a comp ( course ) within an hour's drive and they only like 70% of what happens at that club then they will still go and attendances will remain high. If they had a choice, within that drive time, of another club that they like 80% and another at 90% they would probably go there. So just because a club gets good attendances it doesn't mean that there isn't room for improvement.

    Interesting that Rob mentioned that the Worlds HFT has only been cleared on both days once. That was by Kieran in the first worlds ( @ 2009 ? ). I was at those worlds and that was in the days when the HFT course rules were more lenient. I'm not for one second taking anything away from Kieran's two clearances. Actually the opposite. The point being that he cleared both days ( 60/60 + 60/60 ... 30 targets each day ) when no one else, out of 180 shooters, cleared those courses. So the point is the courses don't have to be mega tough ( with some lottery targets ) to find out who shoots best. At about that time shooters were getting better at ranging and kit was getting better and several people started clearing courses at National level. So in came more reduced kills and ranges pushed out etc to stop that.

    Personally ( only an opinion ), I think that maybe more effort could have gone in the direction of more range traps and out of comfort zone targets ( but not contortion jobs ) instead of tiny kills and added range. I have always said that the rock steady stances have driven courses to where they are, and making the stances a bit tougher would have been better ( with the option for newcomers to get into the sports with easier stances ). The tiny kills and added range are fine if the weather is 5mph with the odd 10mph gust ( wait for the lull and take the shot for 5mph drift ) ... but when you have those much tighter courses and setters have learned to set range traps and wind traps ( peg out of wind but target in wind etc ) plus the small kills and added range, and then you add in 10mph wind plus 20mph drifts, it's lottery time on a number of targets for the best and half the field scoring 50% or less. Only numbers over a period of say 10 years will show if a range of abilities are happy.

    I'm not sure if FT went down a similar route but 6 GP clearances in 10 years with all those top shooters taking part seems low and maybe an indication that there is too much bias on not wanting anyone to clear your course. Weather foercasts are very good ( not perfect ) these days within several days and certainly within a couple of days. So if the weather says 2mph wind with 6mph gusts then set the max number of long distance and max positionals. If it says 10mph with 20mph gusts then bring a few long ones in and drag a couple of positionals back.

    Red ants this way.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by bozzer View Post
    Rob

    Do you think those stats are good?

    Put a different way ... in all those years and only 6 clearances on a GP and 1 in a World ... has there only been 7 occasions when a top shooter has ranged every target well enough, judged the wind well enough and got the shot off well enough ... or has there been many occasions where a top shooter has done absolutely nothing wrong, but kill size, target distance and wind has meant that they didn't clear the course.

    My point is that if someone does nothing wrong, but wind ( variable ) has meant that it's almost impossible to knock down a certain target down every time ( even if you do exactly the same thing every time ), then are those targets too small, too far in that wind?
    I think they're fine. I've never been to a shoot where a target has been missed by everyone.

    It's been proven it's possible to clear if you get it right, and reading the wind is part of the necessary skill set. Years ago when I won a GP on a 48 I missed a 35 yard uphill stander (which others had got) and a 45 yard kneeler which I forgot to dial for (my 2nd to last target). Another 48 I did by missing a stander (again something around 30 yards) and a 25mm kill for wind (can't remember if I aimed off too much or not enough). My first and 3rd targets. It was cleared by a James Osborne in a lane along from me.

    The targets aren't too small or far. People miss for all sorts of reasons. Not missing is aim of the game, doing it is another matter. But you'd be surprised how the top shots are able to repeat the task several times consistently.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by bozzer View Post

    I'm not sure if FT went down a similar route but 6 GP clearances in 10 years with all those top shooters taking part seems low and maybe an indication that there is too much bias on not wanting anyone to clear your course. Weather foercasts are very good ( not perfect ) these days within several days and certainly within a couple of days. So if the weather says 2mph wind with 6mph gusts then set the max number of long distance and max positionals. If it says 10mph with 20mph gusts then bring a few long ones in and drag a couple of positionals back.

    Red ants this way.
    With respect I think basing FT results on HFT experience doesn't work. FT GP's are almost twice as many targets, they have 50 unsupported shots, 40 out to 55yds, 10 of them kneeling and standing out 45yds. Wind aside, being able to even hit 45 yard unsupported positionals on a timer, on demand, in competition is a rare feat. I've seen top shots miss much closer when the pressure is on or when they've been through a tough shoot.

    European FT has become more technical because they are landlocked and lack the wind that makes the UK scene more interesting. It's not always possible to have the land and weather on tap to make a 30 yard 40mm kill a really tough shot, but the sport has been going in that direction for a number of years because not many enjoy a course that's maxed and there's no real need for it, unless you don't have the wind and terrain and you want to decide a world championship.

    Not everyone does have a competition within an hour's drive, which is why club and regional courses aren't GP's... there's a structure that allows people to find their level. It doesn't mean a club course should be crap or unchallenging.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobF View Post
    With respect I think basing FT results on HFT experience doesn't work. FT GP's are almost twice as many targets, they have 50 unsupported shots, 40 out to 55yds, 10 of them kneeling and standing out 45yds. Wind aside, being able to even hit 45 yard unsupported positionals on a timer, on demand, in competition is a rare feat. I've seen top shots miss much closer when the pressure is on or when they've been through a tough shoot.

    European FT has become more technical because they are landlocked and lack the wind that makes the UK scene more interesting. It's not always possible to have the land and weather on tap to make a 30 yard 40mm kill a really tough shot, but the sport has been going in that direction for a number of years because not many enjoy a course that's maxed and there's no real need for it, unless you don't have the wind and terrain and you want to decide a world championship.

    Not everyone does have a competition within an hour's drive, which is why club and regional courses aren't GP's... there's a structure that allows people to find their level. It doesn't mean a club course should be crap or unchallenging.
    Well put Rob. I cannot disagree with the above. Going back to HFT the discipline is not for everyone the same as FT is not for a lot of people,one suits an individual better than the other. They cannot be compared directly for the reasons above.
    At the end of the day they are both shooting and individuals enjoy them to what ever level or ability they are capable of.
    Targets need to be challenging otherwise we would all be World Champions some day.

  11. #41
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    Many thanks for the comments Rob. Lots of good points ... all taken on board.

    Just to clarify ... I'm not wanting clubs to put out easy, unchallenging courses. I've actually always wanted more challenging courses with tougher positions to try and reduce wind lotteries and put more emphasis on shooting skills. I want a course where I have to shoot very well on each target to knock it down.

    I keep using this word 'Lottery'. I have it in my head ( maybe wrong ) that there could be a target that is say 55 yards. The wind is variable. It's almost never 0mph so you can't wait for that, especially on a clock. So let's say that even in it's 'Lulls' on a day with reasonable wind it's variable enough to make an inch or so difference in drift ( maybe more ) over several shots. So if you clamped a pretty dead PCP in a vice, aimed at exactly the same point, and took several shots ( waited for lulls ) then there would be a horizontal pattern re POI of an inch or more. So two top shooters both judge the target exactly the same for range and drift. They both use the same aim point and hold steady and release the shot perfectly. One goes down and the other doesn't. A much weaker shooter may drop that target that day.

    So it doesn't mean that no target can be dropped. So it's not really relevant to say that a target is never missed by everyone. It's the fact that two people shoot it exactly the same and one gets a '1' and the other an 'X'.

    Maybe it's just part of an outdoor sport. Maybe golf is the same. Two top golfers have a 170 yard approach to the flag. Both hit exactly the same club and exactly the same shot. Both judge the drift the same. On one shot the wind holds and the ball lands 6 inches from the hole. On the second, an instant after impact the wind gusts and that ball is drifted into a bunker.

    All you can probably do, within the present game, is try and bring targets in when the wind is at a level to try and reduce some of the 'Lottery'. I understand that in EU the wind isn't the same as the UK.

    I understand that over 50 shots that's a lot of concentration to not make a small mistake and top shots can miss the easier targets to deny them a clear, even with little wind about.

    Putting it a different way ... there must have been courses that you have shot, over the years, in the UK, where there have been lots of very long targets and the wind was blowing hats off, and no one had a cat in hell's chance of clearing that course. I shot a FT comp where an ex World Champ top scored and missed about 7 out of 40. I have no idea how he knocked about 33 down, but I reckon he could have shot that course 100 times and got no where near clearing it. I'm not saying that's common but it's an example of how courses can be beyond the possibility of anyone clearing them. Several targets dragged in that day and that World Champ top scores with 38/40 and if he went around a few times he may clear it ... that seems better to me.

    Maybe the GP's have the balance right and you are happy that the small amount of clearances is about right, so that's fine.

    Thanks again for the replies.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by bozzer View Post
    Many thanks for the comments Rob. Lots of good points ... all taken on board.

    Just to clarify ... I'm not wanting clubs to put out easy, unchallenging courses. I've actually always wanted more challenging courses with tougher positions to try and reduce wind lotteries and put more emphasis on shooting skills. I want a course where I have to shoot very well on each target to knock it down.

    I keep using this word 'Lottery'. I have it in my head ( maybe wrong ) that there could be a target that is say 55 yards. The wind is variable. It's almost never 0mph so you can't wait for that, especially on a clock. So let's say that even in it's 'Lulls' on a day with reasonable wind it's variable enough to make an inch or so difference in drift ( maybe more ) over several shots. So if you clamped a pretty dead PCP in a vice, aimed at exactly the same point, and took several shots ( waited for lulls ) then there would be a horizontal pattern re POI of an inch or more. So two top shooters both judge the target exactly the same for range and drift. They both use the same aim point and hold steady and release the shot perfectly. One goes down and the other doesn't. A much weaker shooter may drop that target that day.

    So it doesn't mean that no target can be dropped. So it's not really relevant to say that a target is never missed by everyone. It's the fact that two people shoot it exactly the same and one gets a '1' and the other an 'X'.

    Maybe it's just part of an outdoor sport. Maybe golf is the same. Two top golfers have a 170 yard approach to the flag. Both hit exactly the same club and exactly the same shot. Both judge the drift the same. On one shot the wind holds and the ball lands 6 inches from the hole. On the second, an instant after impact the wind gusts and that ball is drifted into a bunker.

    All you can probably do, within the present game, is try and bring targets in when the wind is at a level to try and reduce some of the 'Lottery'. I understand that in EU the wind isn't the same as the UK.

    I understand that over 50 shots that's a lot of concentration to not make a small mistake and top shots can miss the easier targets to deny them a clear, even with little wind about.

    Putting it a different way ... there must have been courses that you have shot, over the years, in the UK, where there have been lots of very long targets and the wind was blowing hats off, and no one had a cat in hell's chance of clearing that course. I shot a FT comp where an ex World Champ top scored and missed about 7 out of 40. I have no idea how he knocked about 33 down, but I reckon he could have shot that course 100 times and got no where near clearing it. I'm not saying that's common but it's an example of how courses can be beyond the possibility of anyone clearing them. Several targets dragged in that day and that World Champ top scores with 38/40 and if he went around a few times he may clear it ... that seems better to me.

    Maybe the GP's have the balance right and you are happy that the small amount of clearances is about right, so that's fine.

    Thanks again for the replies.
    These days the standard has to be seen to be believed. I was well off the pace yesterday and the gun was having a bit of a fit, but as I shot I'd be dropping 10 out of the 50. The thing is thought that despite being on the downward side of the curve I'm still quite comfortable reading wind off plate and the top guys are still just missing 1-2 in those conditions, probably different targets. The lowest scoring GP this year was 41. The pace of improvement in FT has to be seen to be believed.

    That said, yesterday wasn't a long course, which was nice... the GP series has just been won for the 4th time by Jack Harris with a rig that could be had for £1000.

    The wind is the key.

    I think when people say world class they mean different things. Possibly a standard of difficulty, or possibly a standard of presentation. It's probably only at the worlds where you get both.

    It's going to be held in the Midlands next August, and we're hoping to make it the largest single discipline, certainly in air gun terms, in the world. Pop along for a visit, we'll have full spectator access around the course.

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