What constitutes a world class course ?

[RobF]

I'm not sure if FT went down a similar route but 6 GP clearances in 10 years with all those top shooters taking part seems low and maybe an indication that there is too much bias on not wanting anyone to clear your course. Weather foercasts are very good ( not perfect ) these days within several days and certainly within a couple of days. So if the weather says 2mph wind with 6mph gusts then set the max number of long distance and max positionals. If it says 10mph with 20mph gusts then bring a few long ones in and drag a couple of positionals back.

Red ants this way.

With respect I think basing FT results on HFT experience doesn't work. FT GP's are almost twice as many targets, they have 50 unsupported shots, 40 out to 55yds, 10 of them kneeling and standing out 45yds. Wind aside, being able to even hit 45 yard unsupported positionals on a timer, on demand, in competition is a rare feat. I've seen top shots miss much closer when the pressure is on or when they've been through a tough shoot.

European FT has become more technical because they are landlocked and lack the wind that makes the UK scene more interesting. It's not always possible to have the land and weather on tap to make a 30 yard 40mm kill a really tough shot, but the sport has been going in that direction for a number of years because not many enjoy a course that's maxed and there's no real need for it, unless you don't have the wind and terrain and you want to decide a world championship.

Not everyone does have a competition within an hour's drive, which is why club and regional courses aren't GP's... there's a structure that allows people to find their level. It doesn't mean a club course should be crap or unchallenging.

[thumbhole]

With respect I think basing FT results on HFT experience doesn't work. FT GP's are almost twice as many targets, they have 50 unsupported shots, 40 out to 55yds, 10 of them kneeling and standing out 45yds. Wind aside, being able to even hit 45 yard unsupported positionals on a timer, on demand, in competition is a rare feat. I've seen top shots miss much closer when the pressure is on or when they've been through a tough shoot.

European FT has become more technical because they are landlocked and lack the wind that makes the UK scene more interesting. It's not always possible to have the land and weather on tap to make a 30 yard 40mm kill a really tough shot, but the sport has been going in that direction for a number of years because not many enjoy a course that's maxed and there's no real need for it, unless you don't have the wind and terrain and you want to decide a world championship.

Not everyone does have a competition within an hour's drive, which is why club and regional courses aren't GP's... there's a structure that allows people to find their level. It doesn't mean a club course should be crap or unchallenging.

Well put Rob. I cannot disagree with the above. Going back to HFT the discipline is not for everyone the same as FT is not for a lot of people,one suits an individual better than the other. They cannot be compared directly for the reasons above.
At the end of the day they are both shooting and individuals enjoy them to what ever level or ability they are capable of.
Targets need to be challenging otherwise we would all be World Champions some day.

[bozzer]

Many thanks for the comments Rob. Lots of good points ... all taken on board.

Just to clarify ... I'm not wanting clubs to put out easy, unchallenging courses. I've actually always wanted more challenging courses with tougher positions to try and reduce wind lotteries and put more emphasis on shooting skills. I want a course where I have to shoot very well on each target to knock it down.

I keep using this word 'Lottery'. I have it in my head ( maybe wrong ) that there could be a target that is say 55 yards. The wind is variable. It's almost never 0mph so you can't wait for that, especially on a clock. So let's say that even in it's 'Lulls' on a day with reasonable wind it's variable enough to make an inch or so difference in drift ( maybe more ) over several shots. So if you clamped a pretty dead PCP in a vice, aimed at exactly the same point, and took several shots ( waited for lulls ) then there would be a horizontal pattern re POI of an inch or more. So two top shooters both judge the target exactly the same for range and drift. They both use the same aim point and hold steady and release the shot perfectly. One goes down and the other doesn't. A much weaker shooter may drop that target that day.

So it doesn't mean that no target can be dropped. So it's not really relevant to say that a target is never missed by everyone. It's the fact that two people shoot it exactly the same and one gets a '1' and the other an 'X'.

Maybe it's just part of an outdoor sport. Maybe golf is the same. Two top golfers have a 170 yard approach to the flag. Both hit exactly the same club and exactly the same shot. Both judge the drift the same. On one shot the wind holds and the ball lands 6 inches from the hole. On the second, an instant after impact the wind gusts and that ball is drifted into a bunker.

All you can probably do, within the present game, is try and bring targets in when the wind is at a level to try and reduce some of the 'Lottery'. I understand that in EU the wind isn't the same as the UK.

I understand that over 50 shots that's a lot of concentration to not make a small mistake and top shots can miss the easier targets to deny them a clear, even with little wind about.

Putting it a different way ... there must have been courses that you have shot, over the years, in the UK, where there have been lots of very long targets and the wind was blowing hats off, and no one had a cat in hell's chance of clearing that course. I shot a FT comp where an ex World Champ top scored and missed about 7 out of 40. I have no idea how he knocked about 33 down, but I reckon he could have shot that course 100 times and got no where near clearing it. I'm not saying that's common but it's an example of how courses can be beyond the possibility of anyone clearing them. Several targets dragged in that day and that World Champ top scores with 38/40 and if he went around a few times he may clear it ... that seems better to me.

Maybe the GP's have the balance right and you are happy that the small amount of clearances is about right, so that's fine.

Thanks again for the replies.

[RobF]

Many thanks for the comments Rob. Lots of good points ... all taken on board.

Just to clarify ... I'm not wanting clubs to put out easy, unchallenging courses. I've actually always wanted more challenging courses with tougher positions to try and reduce wind lotteries and put more emphasis on shooting skills. I want a course where I have to shoot very well on each target to knock it down.

I keep using this word 'Lottery'. I have it in my head ( maybe wrong ) that there could be a target that is say 55 yards. The wind is variable. It's almost never 0mph so you can't wait for that, especially on a clock. So let's say that even in it's 'Lulls' on a day with reasonable wind it's variable enough to make an inch or so difference in drift ( maybe more ) over several shots. So if you clamped a pretty dead PCP in a vice, aimed at exactly the same point, and took several shots ( waited for lulls ) then there would be a horizontal pattern re POI of an inch or more. So two top shooters both judge the target exactly the same for range and drift. They both use the same aim point and hold steady and release the shot perfectly. One goes down and the other doesn't. A much weaker shooter may drop that target that day.

So it doesn't mean that no target can be dropped. So it's not really relevant to say that a target is never missed by everyone. It's the fact that two people shoot it exactly the same and one gets a '1' and the other an 'X'.

Maybe it's just part of an outdoor sport. Maybe golf is the same. Two top golfers have a 170 yard approach to the flag. Both hit exactly the same club and exactly the same shot. Both judge the drift the same. On one shot the wind holds and the ball lands 6 inches from the hole. On the second, an instant after impact the wind gusts and that ball is drifted into a bunker.

All you can probably do, within the present game, is try and bring targets in when the wind is at a level to try and reduce some of the 'Lottery'. I understand that in EU the wind isn't the same as the UK.

I understand that over 50 shots that's a lot of concentration to not make a small mistake and top shots can miss the easier targets to deny them a clear, even with little wind about.

Putting it a different way ... there must have been courses that you have shot, over the years, in the UK, where there have been lots of very long targets and the wind was blowing hats off, and no one had a cat in hell's chance of clearing that course. I shot a FT comp where an ex World Champ top scored and missed about 7 out of 40. I have no idea how he knocked about 33 down, but I reckon he could have shot that course 100 times and got no where near clearing it. I'm not saying that's common but it's an example of how courses can be beyond the possibility of anyone clearing them. Several targets dragged in that day and that World Champ top scores with 38/40 and if he went around a few times he may clear it ... that seems better to me.

Maybe the GP's have the balance right and you are happy that the small amount of clearances is about right, so that's fine.

Thanks again for the replies.

These days the standard has to be seen to be believed. I was well off the pace yesterday and the gun was having a bit of a fit, but as I shot I'd be dropping 10 out of the 50. The thing is thought that despite being on the downward side of the curve I'm still quite comfortable reading wind off plate and the top guys are still just missing 1-2 in those conditions, probably different targets. The lowest scoring GP this year was 41. The pace of improvement in FT has to be seen to be believed.

That said, yesterday wasn't a long course, which was nice... the GP series has just been won for the 4th time by Jack Harris with a rig that could be had for £1000.

The wind is the key.

I think when people say world class they mean different things. Possibly a standard of difficulty, or possibly a standard of presentation. It's probably only at the worlds where you get both.

It's going to be held in the Midlands next August, and we're hoping to make it the largest single discipline, certainly in air gun terms, in the world. Pop along for a visit, we'll have full spectator access around the course.