What constitutes a world class course ?

[bozzer]

I have been setting courses for HFT and FT for over 20 years ... no one has cleared a course I have set in either.

I don't think that's a great accolade.

I think the desire of course setters to try and make sure no one clears their courses has been a negative in HFT/FT.

As stated above only a very few shooters will be in the very top class ( as good as it gets ).

So for me a good course has a number of targets that put shooters out of a normal 'practice range' comfort zone ... but that doesn't mean ridiculous angles that test flexibility instead of shooting ability. If a top shooter gets every shot 95% or better right then that course should be cleared.

The problem will always be wind. No matter what course someone puts out ( within rules ) on a still day ( very rare ) then top shooters will be capable of clearing it ... if they get all aspects of every shot right. As we introduce wind and that wind gets up to a certain level, then some targets are lottery targets. I've talked about this many times. Very steady stances for the greatest majority of shots in both sports have driven course setters to push lots of targets right to the edge of the rules re kill size and range ... and angles. So when you get those courses and the wind is above a certain level ( doesn't have to be a lot ), then there is too much chance in too many targets for even the best, and for the weaker shooters it can be a pointless day.

[thumbhole]

I don't think that's a great accolade.

I think the desire of course setters to try and make sure no one clears their courses has been a negative in HFT/FT.

As stated above only a very few shooters will be in the very top class ( as good as it gets ).

So for me a good course has a number of targets that put shooters out of a normal 'practice range' comfort zone ... but that doesn't mean ridiculous angles that test flexibility instead of shooting ability. If a top shooter gets every shot 95% or better right then that course should be cleared.

The problem will always be wind. No matter what course someone puts out ( within rules ) on a still day ( very rare ) then top shooters will be capable of clearing it ... if they get all aspects of every shot right. As we introduce wind and that wind gets up to a certain level, then some targets are lottery targets. I've talked about this many times. Very steady stances for the greatest majority of shots in both sports have driven course setters to push lots of targets right to the edge of the rules re kill size and range ... and angles. So when you get those courses and the wind is above a certain level ( doesn't have to be a lot ), then there is too much chance in too many targets for even the best, and for the weaker shooters it can be a pointless day.

Something must be right as we have a regular attendance of 50+ shooters weekly. My courses have something for everyone we have shooters from as low as 7 up to 80+ so foot numbers dictate. I held a round for the MFTA which I won't get into the politics. 31 turned up a lot of effort for two people to do and only 3 days to do it in. My Daughter also suffered an epileptic fit during us doing it. Another story on its own. Any way lot of effort for a small turnout.
During the MFTA shoot we had 76 on our normal club course need I say more. This is where we concentrate our efforts. I think shooting should be shooting to what ever degree the person wants to take it. I am happy to accommodate everyone whatever their ability.
Our club caters for everyone that is more important than a few individuals.

[Ratinator]

Politics has nothing to do with my comment ,Marc.
A lot of effort ,a poorly child or 3 days were not the problem , the targets were.
I suffered for about 2 hours on that course , shooting about half of it.
When I finally chose dinner over any more misery and walked off to the car park ,both of your marshals were sat in the car park as well, clearly very embarrassed.
The only two faults I found with the course were Poor quality targets and no one around to account for them.
If your targets are getting seriously pounded by your 76 shooters each week then throw away is fine ,but get a set of quality targets for comp days.
You have a good piece of land that I know offers some serious wind at times ,so show case it .
Simon

[RobF]

One set to worlds rules. In hft you have two sets to choose from, in ft, one. With ft you have a considerable set of rules and guidance as to how that should be done, and in addition to how the event should be run.

There’s nothing in the rules about if a course is cleared or not making it or a certain class. In the past decade about 6 people have cleared a GP (no one has cleared more than one) and only one person has cleared a course in the worlds, albeit they only cleared one of the 3 courses. The first hft worlds was also cleared both days by the same person.

Terms should as world class are often taken as being of the standing of the being in the class found at a world championships. To that end it helps to have some experience of what that is, the more the better.

[bozzer]

Rob

Do you think those stats are good?

Put a different way ... in all those years and only 6 clearances on a GP and 1 in a World ... has there only been 7 occasions when a top shooter has ranged every target well enough, judged the wind well enough and got the shot off well enough ... or has there been many occasions where a top shooter has done absolutely nothing wrong, but kill size, target distance and wind has meant that they didn't clear the course.

My point is that if someone does nothing wrong, but wind ( variable ) has meant that it's almost impossible to knock down a certain target down every time ( even if you do exactly the same thing every time ), then are those targets too small, too far in that wind?

[bozzer]

Often when someone comments about a course ( HFT for instance ), out come the red ants and the comments along the lines of ... Well the comps are always fully booked ( I don't know if they still are ) so they must be doing something right.

Airgun shooting is very much a minority sport. Most airgunners don't have a choice of several comps within an hour's drive on Sundays. So if there is a comp ( course ) within an hour's drive and they only like 70% of what happens at that club then they will still go and attendances will remain high. If they had a choice, within that drive time, of another club that they like 80% and another at 90% they would probably go there. So just because a club gets good attendances it doesn't mean that there isn't room for improvement.

Interesting that Rob mentioned that the Worlds HFT has only been cleared on both days once. That was by Kieran in the first worlds ( @ 2009 ? ). I was at those worlds and that was in the days when the HFT course rules were more lenient. I'm not for one second taking anything away from Kieran's two clearances. Actually the opposite. The point being that he cleared both days ( 60/60 + 60/60 ... 30 targets each day ) when no one else, out of 180 shooters, cleared those courses. So the point is the courses don't have to be mega tough ( with some lottery targets ) to find out who shoots best. At about that time shooters were getting better at ranging and kit was getting better and several people started clearing courses at National level. So in came more reduced kills and ranges pushed out etc to stop that.

Personally ( only an opinion ), I think that maybe more effort could have gone in the direction of more range traps and out of comfort zone targets ( but not contortion jobs ) instead of tiny kills and added range. I have always said that the rock steady stances have driven courses to where they are, and making the stances a bit tougher would have been better ( with the option for newcomers to get into the sports with easier stances ). The tiny kills and added range are fine if the weather is 5mph with the odd 10mph gust ( wait for the lull and take the shot for 5mph drift ) ... but when you have those much tighter courses and setters have learned to set range traps and wind traps ( peg out of wind but target in wind etc ) plus the small kills and added range, and then you add in 10mph wind plus 20mph drifts, it's lottery time on a number of targets for the best and half the field scoring 50% or less. Only numbers over a period of say 10 years will show if a range of abilities are happy.

I'm not sure if FT went down a similar route but 6 GP clearances in 10 years with all those top shooters taking part seems low and maybe an indication that there is too much bias on not wanting anyone to clear your course. Weather foercasts are very good ( not perfect ) these days within several days and certainly within a couple of days. So if the weather says 2mph wind with 6mph gusts then set the max number of long distance and max positionals. If it says 10mph with 20mph gusts then bring a few long ones in and drag a couple of positionals back.

Red ants this way.

[RobF]

I'm not sure if FT went down a similar route but 6 GP clearances in 10 years with all those top shooters taking part seems low and maybe an indication that there is too much bias on not wanting anyone to clear your course. Weather foercasts are very good ( not perfect ) these days within several days and certainly within a couple of days. So if the weather says 2mph wind with 6mph gusts then set the max number of long distance and max positionals. If it says 10mph with 20mph gusts then bring a few long ones in and drag a couple of positionals back.

Red ants this way.

With respect I think basing FT results on HFT experience doesn't work. FT GP's are almost twice as many targets, they have 50 unsupported shots, 40 out to 55yds, 10 of them kneeling and standing out 45yds. Wind aside, being able to even hit 45 yard unsupported positionals on a timer, on demand, in competition is a rare feat. I've seen top shots miss much closer when the pressure is on or when they've been through a tough shoot.

European FT has become more technical because they are landlocked and lack the wind that makes the UK scene more interesting. It's not always possible to have the land and weather on tap to make a 30 yard 40mm kill a really tough shot, but the sport has been going in that direction for a number of years because not many enjoy a course that's maxed and there's no real need for it, unless you don't have the wind and terrain and you want to decide a world championship.

Not everyone does have a competition within an hour's drive, which is why club and regional courses aren't GP's... there's a structure that allows people to find their level. It doesn't mean a club course should be crap or unchallenging.

[RobF]

Rob

Do you think those stats are good?

Put a different way ... in all those years and only 6 clearances on a GP and 1 in a World ... has there only been 7 occasions when a top shooter has ranged every target well enough, judged the wind well enough and got the shot off well enough ... or has there been many occasions where a top shooter has done absolutely nothing wrong, but kill size, target distance and wind has meant that they didn't clear the course.

My point is that if someone does nothing wrong, but wind ( variable ) has meant that it's almost impossible to knock down a certain target down every time ( even if you do exactly the same thing every time ), then are those targets too small, too far in that wind?

I think they're fine. I've never been to a shoot where a target has been missed by everyone.

It's been proven it's possible to clear if you get it right, and reading the wind is part of the necessary skill set. Years ago when I won a GP on a 48 I missed a 35 yard uphill stander (which others had got) and a 45 yard kneeler which I forgot to dial for (my 2nd to last target). Another 48 I did by missing a stander (again something around 30 yards) and a 25mm kill for wind (can't remember if I aimed off too much or not enough). My first and 3rd targets. It was cleared by a James Osborne in a lane along from me.

The targets aren't too small or far. People miss for all sorts of reasons. Not missing is aim of the game, doing it is another matter. But you'd be surprised how the top shots are able to repeat the task several times consistently.