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Thread: first load in 223

  1. #16
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    Don't forget to anneal your case necks regularly.
    Even Lapua cases don't like more than four times reloading without annealing; leading to inconsistent neck tension and vertical stringing.
    To destroy a people, you must first sever their roots. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rickee View Post
    Don't forget to anneal your case necks regularly.
    Even Lapua cases don't like more than four times reloading without annealing; leading to inconsistent neck tension and vertical stringing.
    funny enough i just had my first go at annealing before i loaded my next batch

    cheers del

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parabuteo View Post
    Del.

    Dont dick about with the OAL and the load at the same time mate. Both will affect the group size, so you wont know what made things worse...if they get worse.

    Looking at you loads I would say you have a reasonable amount of room for adjustment. I am shooting 77s over a compressed load of RS52 at 24.6. I am not suggesting you just go and do this, but most of us would see 24gr as a good point with 77gr SMK, so you have a way you can work up to mate. This fairly well replicates the M262 Mod 1 Blackhills match 5.56 loads.

    Because we use mags, we are stuck with mag length (you can hand load but for CSR this wont work). However, the excess length has to go somewhere so it ends up compressing the powder in the case. There are some thoughts that this MAY produce a more consistent burn, I dont know, but certainly I have never had any adverse effects.

    When you are stuck with mag length, you may not be able to produce the ideal distance off the landes. The main reason to do this is to arrest the bullet momentarilly to allow a peak pressure to build and give a more consistant let off point and harmonic. It is why some of the BR farternity soft seat (allowing the bullet to touch the landes and move back into the case rather than jamming into it).

    In many ways this is good news, because it means you only have to mess with the load, however, you may also find that your group reduces in size if you factory crimp the bullet into the neck. This has a similar effect to loading into the landes, and you can be quite harsh with the crimp as it should not cause any issues (Lee's words, not mine). I crimp all of my calibres and have had groups improve with all 3.

    Dont feel that you need to crimp, all I am saying is that there is no ideal 1 size fits all load workup, even 2 identical rifles made at the same time may differ. A friend of mine is about to shoot in a pair of identical BAR15s to it will be interesting to see how it goes.
    nope not mucking about with oal just wanted them to fit my mag mate . from what av seen and been reading a lot of people don't seem to bother crimping bolt action bullets will prob give it a go once av found my ideal load have to say though am loving it but i need to get myself a decent scale i have the lee scale and i bought a second hand lyman 505 and it seems pretty cack you don't get the same reading twice of it

    cheers del

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by del View Post
    funny enough i just had my first go at annealing before i loaded my next batch

    cheers del
    Did you do it by hand or use a machine?
    I annealed by hand for many years and only switched to machine just over a year ago.
    To destroy a people, you must first sever their roots. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  5. #20
    Parabuteo is offline My Chrony has bought it a couple of times...
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    Annealing is ideal if you can get it right and consistantly, otherwise you end up with less consistant tensions than without. Lapua anneal with electric induction where it is easy to get the temps and loc 100%.

    Del, as regards crimping mate.

    Folk dont crimp because they believe that it is only used to prevent bullets coming loose and keeping things waterproof in military ammunition made for automatic weapons....and to a point they would be right, however.

    As I said, many have found that when loading to mag lengths, crimping has given a more consistant release pressure leading to tighter groups. I certainly improves the groups past the optiomim for non crimped loads in all of my rifles.
    I'm a maggot in another life you know

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rickee View Post
    Did you do it by hand or use a machine?
    I annealed by hand for many years and only switched to machine just over a year ago.
    done it by hand

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parabuteo View Post
    Annealing is ideal if you can get it right and consistantly, otherwise you end up with less consistant tensions than without. Lapua anneal with electric induction where it is easy to get the temps and loc 100%.

    Del, as regards crimping mate.

    Folk dont crimp because they believe that it is only used to prevent bullets coming loose and keeping things waterproof in military ammunition made for automatic weapons....and to a point they would be right, however.

    As I said, many have found that when loading to mag lengths, crimping has given a more consistent release pressure leading to tighter groups. I certainly improves the groups past the optimum for non crimped loads in all of my rifles.

    hi mate

    i would agree with you as it seems to make sence with consistent release pressure

    cheers del

  8. #23
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    I would only anneal with hard to get, Re-formed cases or those that are very expensive, 223 is very easy to get and not expensive compared to most other cases, when you start to get split necks bin the lot and buy new brass.

    TB.

  9. #24
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    An impossible load?

    Quote Originally Posted by Parabuteo View Post
    Del.

    Dont dick about with the OAL and the load at the same time mate. Both will affect the group size, so you wont know what made things worse...if they get worse.

    Looking at you loads I would say you have a reasonable amount of room for adjustment. I am shooting 77s over a compressed load of RS52 at 24.6. I am not suggesting you just go and do this, but most of us would see 24gr as a good point with 77gr SMK, so you have a way you can work up to mate. This fairly well replicates the M262 Mod 1 Blackhills match 5.56 loads.

    Because we use mags, we are stuck with mag length (you can hand load but for CSR this wont work). However, the excess length has to go somewhere so it ends up compressing the powder in the case. There are some thoughts that this MAY produce a more consistent burn, I dont know, but certainly I have never had any adverse effects.

    When you are stuck with mag length, you may not be able to produce the ideal distance off the landes. The main reason to do this is to arrest the bullet momentarilly to allow a peak pressure to build and give a more consistant let off point and harmonic. It is why some of the BR farternity soft seat (allowing the bullet to touch the landes and move back into the case rather than jamming into it).

    In many ways this is good news, because it means you only have to mess with the load, however, you may also find that your group reduces in size if you factory crimp the bullet into the neck. This has a similar effect to loading into the landes, and you can be quite harsh with the crimp as it should not cause any issues (Lee's words, not mine). I crimp all of my calibres and have had groups improve with all 3.

    Dont feel that you need to crimp, all I am saying is that there is no ideal 1 size fits all load workup, even 2 identical rifles made at the same time may differ. A friend of mine is about to shoot in a pair of identical BAR15s to it will be interesting to see how it goes.
    I hope I'm not derailing this thread, but I do have a related question which concerns N140 and 77gr SMK. Both Vihtavuori and Sierra (Edition 5) suggest a range of N140 from 21.0 to 24.7gr and 22.3 to 24.5gr respectively. Both also suggest OAL of 2.26". Now, I'm not particularly interested in maximum loads, but there's no way that I can squeeze 24gr of N140 into a .223 case with a 77gr SMK and get an OAL of 2.26". The most I can get in is 21.5gr for that OAL, which is right at the bottom of the weights suggested by both the powder and bullet manufacturers.
    Have I missed the blindingly-obvious somewhere along the line?

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by severnsider View Post
    I hope I'm not derailing this thread, but I do have a related question which concerns N140 and 77gr SMK. Both Vihtavuori and Sierra (Edition 5) suggest a range of N140 from 21.0 to 24.7gr and 22.3 to 24.5gr respectively. Both also suggest OAL of 2.26". Now, I'm not particularly interested in maximum loads, but there's no way that I can squeeze 24gr of N140 into a .223 case with a 77gr SMK and get an OAL of 2.26". The most I can get in is 21.5gr for that OAL, which is right at the bottom of the weights suggested by both the powder and bullet manufacturers.
    Have I missed the blindingly-obvious somewhere along the line?
    compressed load? Chris is a beast of a man, he probably can get an odd extra grain in here or there
    You Cannot Reason People Out of Something They Were Not Reasoned Into
    "Politicians like to panic, they need activity. It is their substitute for achievement" Sir Humphry Appleby

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by kennyc View Post
    compressed load? Chris is a beast of a man, he probably can get an odd extra grain in here or there
    Christ, Ken, if I push it in any harder the case will burst.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by severnsider View Post
    Christ, Ken, if I push it in any harder the case will burst.
    You Cannot Reason People Out of Something They Were Not Reasoned Into
    "Politicians like to panic, they need activity. It is their substitute for achievement" Sir Humphry Appleby

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by severnsider View Post
    I hope I'm not derailing this thread, but I do have a related question which concerns N140 and 77gr SMK. Both Vihtavuori and Sierra (Edition 5) suggest a range of N140 from 21.0 to 24.7gr and 22.3 to 24.5gr respectively. Both also suggest OAL of 2.26". Now, I'm not particularly interested in maximum loads, but there's no way that I can squeeze 24gr of N140 into a .223 case with a 77gr SMK and get an OAL of 2.26". The most I can get in is 21.5gr for that OAL, which is right at the bottom of the weights suggested by both the powder and bullet manufacturers.
    Have I missed the blindingly-obvious somewhere along the line?
    I use this load for shooting on the local range to 600 yards. I use 24gr of N140 and col of 2.650 in my Tikka T3. I don't think its compressed.

    Have you measured your rifle's ideal COL? Could be it will give you the room for those extra grains.

    Or just load a test round (not primer or powder) to 2.650 and see if it fits in the mag and chamber. If so, try to see how many more grains you can get in

    Remember to measure it again when you take it out of the rifle to make sure the bullet hasn't been pushed in a bit.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by bullbarrel View Post
    I use this load for shooting on the local range to 600 yards. I use 24gr of N140 and col of 2.650 in my Tikka T3. I don't think its compressed.

    Have you measured your rifle's ideal COL? Could be it will give you the room for those extra grains.

    Or just load a test round (not primer or powder) to 2.650 and see if it fits in the mag and chamber. If so, try to see how many more grains you can get in

    Remember to measure it again when you take it out of the rifle to make sure the bullet hasn't been pushed in a bit.
    That's interesting, thank you. A COL of 2.650 will not fit the magazine, but I have tried a couple of other cases (Remington) and now it looks as though 24gr N140 will go in with slight crunching and give COL of 2.280". A good reason for checking case capacities In the first place! I'm not comfortable with compressed loads though so will abandon this idea which was to use the longer, heavier bullets for 600 yard shooting (in an AR-style rifle, hence the need to use the magazine).

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by severnsider View Post
    That's interesting, thank you. A COL of 2.650 will not fit the magazine, but I have tried a couple of other cases (Remington) and now it looks as though 24gr N140 will go in with slight crunching and give COL of 2.280". A good reason for checking case capacities In the first place! I'm not comfortable with compressed loads though so will abandon this idea which was to use the longer, heavier bullets for 600 yard shooting (in an AR-style rifle, hence the need to use the magazine).
    I would PM parabuteo as he is using an AR with longer bullets
    You Cannot Reason People Out of Something They Were Not Reasoned Into
    "Politicians like to panic, they need activity. It is their substitute for achievement" Sir Humphry Appleby

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