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Thread: I can see why the Webley Mark3 vs the Airsporter debate was never resolved

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    I can see why the Webley Mark3 vs the Airsporter debate was never resolved

    I remember from other posts here that “in the day” lines were drawn between who was a Webley Mark3 fan and who was a BSA Airsporter fan. I now have the tools to relive and feel the pull of each. I have two early rifles a 1956? Webley Mark 3 and a BSA Airsporter Mark 2. Early enough so rot hadn’t started to take a toll on some issues.

    Was out in the back yard with the two this morning. First take:

    1. They both shoot ruffly 10 FP, so pretty equal.
    2. Style point obviously to the Airsporter, still looks good even now
    3. Build quality, as many say the Webley is as good as it gets. Machined Blued masterpiece. But the early BSA’s are pretty nice as well, my stock finish probably beats the Webley?
    4. Cocking, Webley is a real pain with its short arm, BSA purposely engineered a much easier pull and by a large margin. I really doubt I could have a real long session with the Webley.
    5. Balance, BSA balances perfectly, Webley barrel heavy.
    6. Comfort, the BSA feels like a balanced modern rifle, not just a Airgun. Like the slim feel of the Webley but your support hand is directly under the long gap in the stock left for the cocking lever.
    7. Open sights, I give to the Webley but that might not be the case if I had a Airsporter Mark 1? The folding sight of the Mark 2 just is not as easy to use. Let’s not go to the scoping possibilities.
    8. Accuracy I would probably give a edge to the Webley but it’s close. Better sights and a little better trigger.
    9. Innovation, BSA ease of cocking and automatic opening of loading tap (pretty cool).

    The divergence of atributes makes you have to own both rifles. There really is no winner. But I do come away with a appreciation of BSA’s innovations. But BSA may have let rot take it’s told more quickly as time went on?
    Last edited by 45flint; 21-08-2018 at 05:16 PM.

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    Webley/BSA

    Yes both have their own merits, the good thing is now you have both to compare and enjoy.

    However try an early 1960's Original Model 50, apart from a power advantage to the Webley and BSA, neither comes close.

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    Does there really have to be a winner? - can they not both be winners in their own way?

    To me, older rifles just have something very special about them - it's not really 'quantifiable' - it's just there, the smell, the 'feel' of them - everything. Indeed if that has to be explained to someone, then they would probably not understand it!
    A couple of my Airsporters are actually older than me, I also have one produced in the same year as me - and all in better condition too!

    I'm going to shut up now!

    ASM
    I am a Man of La Northumberlandia, a true Knight and spend my days on my Quest (my duty nay privilege!) and fighting dragons and unbeatable foe, to right the unrightable wrongs, to bear with unbearable sorrow and dreaming my impossible dreams.

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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by Airsporterman View Post
    Does there really have to be a winner? - can they not both be winners in their own way?

    To me, older rifles just have something very special about them - it's not really 'quantifiable' - it's just there, the smell, the 'feel' of them - everything. Indeed if that has to be explained to someone, then they would probably not understand it!
    A couple of my Airsporters are actually older than me, I also have one produced in the same year as me - and all in better condition too!

    I'm going to shut up now!

    ASM
    Correct but I was going back in time to the days when these were the two available and you had to choose. Luckily I in retirement can afford both. It’s just a excercise and by doing it you find out more about each gun?
    Last edited by 45flint; 21-08-2018 at 06:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coburn View Post
    Yes both have their own merits, the good thing is now you have both to compare and enjoy.

    However try an early 1960's Original Model 50, apart from a power advantage to the Webley and BSA, neither comes close.
    I think flint has one of those too. With a diopter.

    I have 2 pre-57 “Series 4” MkIIIs (one in each calibre), a Mk1 Airsporter (refinished and repaired, an inexpensive shooter rather than a collector’s piece) and a 1970s Diana 50. They all have their merits and demerits. I could not choose between them easily.

    Well, the 70s Diana is not as appealing as the late 40s and mid-50s guns. But a 50s Diana would be.

    On flint’s analysis, I suspect point 5 (Webley is barrel heavy) correlates with point 9 (accuracy).

    Am I right in thinking that the BSA was cheaper than the Webley at the time?

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    I’ve still got the mk3 that I had when I was 14 (55 now!), love it then and still do.
    Mate had an Airsporter and another had an origional 50.
    All were great back in the day.
    Best plan here is to do what I am doing and look for a mint example of each and enjoy them equally.

    Kev

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geezer View Post
    On flint’s analysis, I suspect point 5 (Webley is barrel heavy) correlates with point 9 (accuracy).
    Sticking that underlever beneath the barrel will do that...
    Pro sport vs TX200 anyone ?
    Always looking for any cheap, interesting, knackered "project" guns. Thanks, JB.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geezer View Post
    I think flint has one of those too. With a diopter.

    I have 2 pre-57 “Series 4” MkIIIs (one in each calibre), a Mk1 Airsporter (refinished and repaired, an inexpensive shooter rather than a collector’s piece) and a 1970s Diana 50. They all have their merits and demerits. I could not choose between them easily.

    Well, the 70s Diana is not as appealing as the late 40s and mid-50s guns. But a 50s Diana would be.

    On flint’s analysis, I suspect point 5 (Webley is barrel heavy) correlates with point 9 (accuracy).

    Am I right in thinking that the BSA was cheaper than the Webley at the time?
    Yes I could bring out the the Diana 50 with the Diopter, lol That’s for another day!

    Curious what the price comparison was between these two guns in 1956?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 45flint View Post
    Yes I could bring out the the Diana 50 with the Diopter, lol That’s for another day!

    Curious what the price comparison was between these two guns in 1956?
    According to Tom Gaylord it was reckoned (by WHB Smith) in 1957 that an Airsporter, if imported, would sell in the US for $55 - which is just under $500 now, corrected for inflation. Presumably including the costs of transport, import duties, etc. A little more than a Sheridan.

    The MkIII sold on introduction in the UK for a bit over £14, but temporarily went to over £16 due to increases in sales tax. The former, inflation corrected, runs in the high £400s. So about $600 as a ballpark figure? Without US transport and import duties.

    By contrast, by 1985, our forum sponsor JSR was asking £98.50 for a Mk6 Airsporter S, £84.10 for a standard Airsporter, £98 for the short-lived Diana 50TO1, and their most expensive Webley was the newly-introduced Omega at £99, the next the walnut Vulcan at £85.

    And the HW77 at £89.90, and the HW80 at £84. Which goes a long way to explaining the decline of the U.K. air gun manufacturing business.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shed tuner View Post
    Sticking that underlever beneath the barrel will do that...
    Pro sport vs TX200 anyone ?
    Let’s not go there?

    But, in the words of Scotty from Star Trek - “ye cannae change the laws of physics”.

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    I found the answer was to own both and appreciate their individual attributes rather than directly comparing them. For me, the rear sight on the Mk1 Airsporter is better than the Mk2, but a nice peep sight fitted to either model would no doubt assist my ageing eyes.

    If I was forced to choose between the two, I would go for the Airsporter partly for its more elegant appearance, but perhaps more importantly because it was an original British design rather than a copy of the pre-war German Diana 45.

    Brian

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shed tuner View Post
    Sticking that underlever beneath the barrel will do that...
    Pro sport vs TX200 anyone ?
    AA could have solved that by putting a solid bull barrel on the ProSport instead of pandering to the hunters (who use PCPs and magic twigs anyway) who wanted a silencer and not so much weight...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abasmajor View Post
    I found the answer was to own both and appreciate their individual attributes rather than directly comparing them. For me, the rear sight on the Mk1 Airsporter is better than the Mk2, but a nice peep sight fitted to either model would no doubt assist my ageing eyes.

    If I was forced to choose between the two, I would go for the Airsporter partly for its more elegant appearance, but perhaps more importantly because it was an original British design rather than a copy of the pre-war German Diana 45.

    Brian
    I can’t disagree with your thoughts. But the bluing and precision of the Webley make it a tie for me. Own both can love each pretty equally. Do at 66 appreciate the cocking ease of the Airsporter.

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    In the late 60's when I started to buy air rifles as a teenager, I remember drooling over the Webley Mk3 and BSA Airsporters that were on display in a few Glasgow Gunshops, about 20 miles from where I lived. None of our local gun/sports shops had them I recall... Various Milbro Diana's (manufactured about 30 miles away) and BSA Meteors and Webley Falcons were more typically available.
    In 1969 I believe the Webley Mk3 was around £19-10-00 and the Airsporter was about ten bob (50p) cheaper. Sounds really cheap nowadays but the average weekly wage was about £20.. I was earning about £11 a week after working in a bank for two years.

    I bought my first Webley Mk3 in 1971 (I think) secondhand where I part exchanged an almost new Hy-score pistol ..although I liked the Mk3, I subsequently regretted parting with the Hy-score.
    A couple of years later I sold it but I bought two others which I still have and I bought my first almost new Airsporter in 1976, I think. Now this was a Mk4 model Airsporter and the plastic sights and trigger and bland beech stock and didn't shoot particularly great... Probably similar power to the Webleys but it didn't instill the 'pride of ownership' that the Webley induced.

    In more recent years I've bought an immaculate version of a Mk2 Airsporter and a Webley Mk3 , both .22, and there's little to choose aesthetically. However my favourite shooting guns out of the two marques are both early 50's (I presume) models..a restored .177 Mk3,an early grooved forestock model, which has been modified with an attached rubber buttpad and an epoxy fitted modern scope rail with a really nice Sabre 2-7x32 scope which works a treat. It also has a swivelling (Supertarget) PH15 Diopter sight fitted and although the metalwork has been painted, it is exceptionally well done, even if the purists might be horrified!
    It shoots really well.. I'm regularly hitting 15mms spinners out to 30 odd yards.
    The Airsporter that shoots really well is an unrestored Mk1 ... Nice patina and an old manky dented stock but it's got a great seal (similar to the Webley, when you de-cock it against the closed loading tap) and
    it fires with a nice 'thwock'.

    I've always compared the Webley Mk3 against the Mk1 and 2 Airsporters as a 1950's Bentley to a similar aged Mk2 Jaguar. The Bentley has more gravitas and superior build quality whereas the Airsporter is more sleek and stylish.
    If the comparison was made between motorcycles from the same era the Webley would be a Norton Dominator 650SS and the Airsporter would be a Triumph Bonneville.

    And so the preferences rage on and I suppose will remain inconclusive as to which is better. My preference probably 'nudges' towards the Webley due to its substantiality, but I have to admit the Airsporter is one bonnie rifle and probably possesses the best ever name that an air rifle can have.

    When you consider that you can generally pick up a reasonably nice example of each for about £150, then in comparison to secondhand late 1970's prices of about £25-£30 then they are relatively cheap in today's financial climate/average wage etc.
    Having said that I recall being in Drapers shop in Nottingham 4 years ago and there were a load of of Mk3s and Airsporters on display with very few under £400 although I suppose they were not the best place for value..the service wasn't all that impressive either.

    Webley Mk3 versus BSA Mk1 and 2 Airsporter...
    You pays your money and you take your choice. Get both if you can manage it... You don't need to justify it!��
    Last edited by VALE BOY; 24-08-2018 at 08:28 PM.

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    Fabulous story! Thnx for sharing

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